The next chapter won’t be ready for a bit, so! Let’s talk about an excerpt from this post:
There’s another thing I appreciate about The Divine Comedy. People often says that books can’t have pop culture references, because in ten years, they’ll seem dated and nobody will understand them. The Divine Comedy is steeped in the pop culture of 1300 C.E. Even Dante experts can’t identify all the people Dante is talking about, but we have to assume that in 1300, his readers knew exactly who he meant. It doesn’t matter. The story is still timeless, because it has great visuals, great characters and beautiful writing.
[rubs forehead] Um. Okay.
Let’s rewind a bit if you’re new here. Rick Riordan is a writer of books aimed at middle schoolers1 centering around mythology. Mostly Greco-Roman mythology, but he’s done spin-off serieses set in the same universe, one about Egyptian mythology, and one about Norse mythology. The first was the world-renowned Percy Jackson and the Olympians, and I am of the opinion that nothing he has written since has topped those original five books.
Part of my problem with his later books is that he tries too hard to address the fans, like referencing fan memes, hyper-focus on shipping2, and, of course, pop culture references. I’ve talked about this before.
We’re going to focus on pop culture references for this one (again).
Now the above-quoted block is obviously a dig at critics who point out that Rick Riordan has, in his later books, relied increasingly on pop culture references. Thanatos uses an iPad. Thor references shows like Arrow and Jessica Jones. Jack sings songs by Taylor Swift and Selena Gomez. Coach Hedge sings the Pokemon theme song (which one is never specified). Percy refers to Frozen. And on and on and on.
He seemingly doesn’t realize that this is not the same thing as cultural references in The Divine Comedy. So let’s go back to The Intertextuality Talk.
Intertextuality is the idea of how texts relate to other texts, whether those texts be books, movies, shows, poems, songs, art, whatever. What I ultimately concluded in my first essay on the topic here on ImpishIdea is that if a reference does not add to the story or its characters, then it doesn’t need to be there. Pop culture references are a prime example of this, because very often they’re there not because they contribute anything, but because the writers want you, the audience, to know they consume pop culture.
I’m getting flashbacks to how the second season of the live-action Supergirl series had two or three references to Hamilton. Why? Because nothing says the writers know pop culture like when the characters stop the action and conversation to turn to the audience and say, “Hey, you guys like Hamilton, right? So do we!”
Okay, yes, sometimes pop culture references are used to establish or develop character traits, but they’re often very shallow uses that don’t work well. Think about how many “geek” characters reference Star Wars or Star Trek in television (especially in the early 2000’s), only to have every other character act like he’s a weirdo. This is downright silly nowadays, when just about everyone has seen at least one Star Wars film.4
Neither of these things are what The Divine Comedy is doing. Well, to an extent, yes, Dante Alighieri was showing off what he knew and developing characters. But The Divine Comedy is also a commentary on the times he was living in. That’s the key difference. When the poet refers to things going on in his home town in the poem, he’s not just throwing it out there to tell you where he’s from–he’s making comments about people and issues.
To pick a recent example: the movie Glass Onion makes reference to the pandemic and to plenty of famous celebrities. It’s not doing this because Rian Johnson is trying to show you that he also knows about important cultural events or figures. He’s doing this because he’s making a specific point about these characters, the Disruptors–who they’re connected to, and how they disregard pandemic restrictions to go party with a tech giant with little regard for the safety of others.
Political fiction does this all the time now, too. Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk is not using the War in Iraq and FOX News because it’s something modern that the audience has heard of. It’s using those as important parts of the story because it’s making very specific points about those things, their effects on American culture, and how they’re perceived by the general public. Maybe you disagree with the conclusions the author makes, as no doubt some of Dante’s readers would have disagreed with his own!
The souls that Dante puts throughout the afterlife aren’t there because “Hey, I know these things exist and I want you to know we read the same books!” They’re there because he’s making examples of them–bad examples in Inferno, and good examples in Paradiso. Bertran de Born isn’t in Hell because he wants you to know he’s read that guy’s work, he’s there because Alighieri is saying, “Don’t listen to this famous author, he’s a warmonger who caused more strife, which is against God’s law.” When he placed Thomas Aquinas in Heaven, it wasn’t to show off his knowledge but to illustrate how a scholar of great faith and intelligence made it to Paradise using intellect and reason.
And not all of Alighieri’s references are incredibly famous people! Some are people and events from his home of Firenze/Florence, Italy. Because he has opinions on those and wants to share with his audience where he thinks all of that fits in the cosmic scheme of things. Yes, it’s pretty ballsy to put people he knew in Hell or Purgatory, but again, he’s making a point.
Riordan is not doing any of this with the majority of his pop culture references. Yes, there are references to geography as the heroes go to different places and see different landmarks. But in terms of pop culture references, he’s throwing them at the audience to say, “Hey! That cool thing you like? Or don’t like? I know about it too! Isn’t this cool!” And while it’s fine when the book is published, these jokes aren’t going to work (assuming they did in the first place) ten years from now because they won’t make sense. A twelve-year-old in 2033 is probably not going to react the same way to a talking sword singing “Shake It Off” because the entire joke was that it was a catchy new pop song (that was already a couple of years old when the book came out anyway).
It’s not even really a joke. It’s just a reference.
[Also? Some of the television shows that Thor references in Magnus Chase, like Jessica Jones, are definitely not children’s shows, so I’m not sure WHY Riordan thought he should namedrop them?]
So it’s galling to me that Rick Riordan looks at the cultural references in The Divine Comedy and apparently pats himself on the back, saying, “Ah yes, I’m just continuing in that tradition when I do pop culture references.” No! No, you’re not! You’re making cheap references for quick laughs that have little to no bearing on characterization, plot, worldbuilding, or theme! And what’s more, you once knew the importance of not dating your work, as Titan’s Curse back in the 2000’s avoided naming the current US President for just this reason! And you’ve done plenty of reference jokes that don’t rely on pop culture to understand (or heck, even the original material). It’s just LAZY.
I promise you, though, however bad Rick Riordan can get about this, Kevin Hearne is a thousand times WORSE. But Riordan’s the one who made the blog post comparing himself to Dante Alighieri in pop culture usage.
In either case, it’s a cheap writing gimmick substituting the work of actual storytelling.
[waving angry butter knife at writers] Stop it. Stop it now.
1 He has ALSO written crime novels for adults, but he’s not exactly known for those these days.
2 The above-linked blog post even has him saying how he ships Dante and Virgil in The Divine Comedy, which is super dumb but I’ll explode with rage if I talk about that3. So we’re not doing that today.
3 Okay, but REALLY?! You look at a reflection at the state of human souls, specifically the part about sin and its damage to people’s lives and countries, in which our protagonist goes through the underworld observing damned souls gruesomely tormented for their sins in life,and you think, “This guy should hook up with his mentor!”?!? You have definitely been talking too much to Cassandra Clare! They’re not fighting through Hell, they’re taking a tour for spiritual enlightenment! Not everything’s a damn YA novel, where the characters prioritize their love lives over everything else!
4 This is a pet peeve of mine that I’m sure absolutely no one cares about, but if a character is really a nerd into niche subculture, why is he (and it’s usually a ‘he’) referencing Star Wars, Harry Potter, Star Trek, and so on? Because that’s the stuff the writer has heard of, and knows the audience has. Nerd characters with weird interests are more likely to send incomprehensible to non-nerds if they’re talking about things like Dragonlance, or House of Leaves, or Newton’s Cannon.
Faranae on 22 July 2023, 11:14 said:
It’s pure name-dropping. It’s quick dopamine for the audience “look! you got that reference! Aren’t you clever? Yes you are!”. Much like the entirety of Ready Player One.
Oddly enough, the best intertextuality I’ve seen lately are in queer historical romance novels. I’m currently reading one which has a very “eat the rich” plot and yknow, gay men doing crimes in the 1750s, and one of the characters runs a lending library and the “random” book picked from there to be referenced is Tom Jones. There’s no expectation that the audience will have read that book, it hurts nothing to not know the book, but it’s definitely another layer if you do.
Juracan on 26 July 2023, 06:48 said:
I agree! I am a lot less harsh on Ready Player One than most people, because I feel like I read it before the backlash really hit, but even then, yeah. It relies on winks to nerd subcultures and being in on the joke. It’s like that you, the reader, and presumably into the same stuff, can be like, “Wow! I could do that cool thing too!”
Even when that “cool thing” is… being able to reenact an entire movie to pass one of the treasure hunt tests.
That’s just silly.
[That applies to the book, anyway—I think the movie is genuinely a good-if-not-excellent movie, because while it has a lot of pop culture references, it still has a strong (though far from flawless) story on its own.]
Huh.
I mean, that does sound like a good example of intertextuality, because you’re right—it’s a cool little extra to readers that they might get, but won’t hamper one’s enjoyment of the story. I like those. Especially when it’s not a stupid joke like what we’re talking about here (or half the stupid jokes in Iron Druid).
Jeffrey Gao on 21 August 2023, 00:18 said:
Sounds more like a nitpicking. I have no issues with Riordan doing this.
Faranae on 21 August 2023, 12:22 said:
Yup, the joke around Tom Jones is an argument about whether anyone actually pays for borrowing books, the owner’s egregious shelving practices, and later the fact that volume 2 is missing, thus driving everyone who read volume 1 absolutely bonkers. Any period-appropriate book would have done, but picking Tom Jones is particularly fitting (a book about mistaken identity and bastards in a book about mistaken identity and bastards).
Personally, I don’t care if he does it, though I don’t enjoy reading books that do this sort of thing at all. I do, however, take exception to him comparing his pop references to Dante’s political and spiritual commentary. Riordan’s not making any sort of commentary with those references. It’s too bad, because he’s a better writer than that and he could be making commentary if he wanted to!
Juracan on 21 August 2023, 22:00 said:
I mean… yeah. It’s kind of what we’re here for, honestly. But I don’t know if it even really counts as nitpicking, because it’s a problem that keeps coming up in Riordan’s writing, and as I (and Faranae!) point out, he’s comparing making shout-outs to popular television show from half a decade ago to be along the same lines as Dante Alighieri making references to the political situation of his home city-state.
Oooh, I do really like that kind of thing, where the books the characters are reading/referencing actually have to do with the story being told, as fun little bonuses.
He could, and at times he did—the sphinx and the standardized testing scene comes to mind—but I really feel like these days he’s chasing trends more than he’s trying to tell a meaningful story that will last more than a year or so.