Steph, not swenson! :)

The Immortal does sound pretty interesting, though.

Never.

The Immortal does sound pretty interesting, though.

It is!

One of my friends was really into the Left Behind series, and they pushed it onto me. . . Aside from me not being part of the intended audience, it was downright depressing and arrogant, and that was the kid’s version.

You know the worst thing? I read half of the kids’ version until I realised that it was the exact same thing with different characters experiencing the exact same feelings, etc. It was like, whole passages were copied with only names changed! Blecch.

Thanks Danielle! I was tempted to watch Burn Notice because the Mighty Bruce Campbell was in it. You have eliminated any reluctance I had to watch.

I. Hate. Christian. Romances.

We are reminded of this every two pages – if we aren’t, it’s because we’re being reminded that Alice really feels God has abandoned her and really doesn’t like God anymore, OK?

I’m struggling with this so much: how much God do you put into a story whose* main plot revolves around, not a journey towards Him, but a journey with another person?

*And yes, that is the correct usage of ‘whose’. Just thought I’d point that out.

I dropped those horrible House of Night books because it was too preachy. It was preachy in the sense that for the first three books she slams “The People of the Faith” every other paragraph, practically, because they are such religious enthusiasts. Then in the fourth one she meets a cat-rescuing nun and realizes that religion isn’t all bad. And I think she actually lights some candles for the Virgin Mary at one point.

It might not have been quite so terrrible if she had explained that “The People of the Faith” are not the only religion around. I thought they represented all religions, which I found insulting and rather ignorant.

I’d rather it went into the general section than the Christian section, but that’s not my decision.

I just meant what were you aiming for/what you thought it was.

In that case, it seems that you’d have more freedom with the story because, I’m assuming, you want it to appeal a wider audience. Books with Christian protags/themes are good when done well.

I started a book that was like that. This guy had lost his faith, so every five seconds someone would tell him how he needed to get his faith back. Then he would contemplate why he had lost it. It got old fast.

Argh, I hate when that happens. Another one in the series was about a woman who (it implied) had been raped. Her response to this horrible experience?

“God must hate me now for losing my virginity before I was married. Ergo, I do not deserve God’s love and should, therefore, stay as far away from God as possible.”

This mantra was repeated every five pages. I couldn’t decide which was more annoying: that she had such a stupid reaction that was illogical and inane, or that she couldn’t get it into her thick skull that God is a forgiving god, especially since her love interest kept repeating it.

Wow! Great thread, Steph.
Yup, Imma Christian and I am rather fed up with Christian fiction stories as a whole as they are generally just…bad stories. Not saying that happy stories are bad, but these are just oftentimes so saccharine or melodramatic that it is…hurl
One of the things that bothered me about one of my friends who is trying to write a story is that her mom chided her about: “Make sure your story glorifies God” after the girl read it to her. And so the girl was like: Yeah, so I’ll work some of that in.

This bothers me because it is again cutting this massive line between secular and sacred, which to me is very bad. If your faith is your own, it will bleed into anything you write. Whether it has a clear analogy or not. Write your story. If it isn’t your story, it won’t work.

Also, this is exactly why I stay in sci-fi/fantasy. I’m way too scared to write in the real world as I naturally feel that my faith does, in fact, hold many answers to what we see going on. The problem is, I don’t want to bash people’s heads in, and I’m very nervous about handling issues of faith in fiction. I don’t feel skilled enough to do it justice in a story. sigh

This is my view exactly! My problem is that I like urban fantasy etc. So I’m halfway between the two. If I introduce fairies, do I end up with a story in which Christinaity has a place, or do I just write and see what happens?

Yeah, I say write and see what happens. I think that if you truly love God and know what he’s all about, then that will inevitably bleed into your work. Maybe you won’t end up with a “redemption” story, but more likely than not you’ll end up with a fantasy with Christian themes.

And just to offset all the complaining about bad Christian novels (not that it isn’t fun, but there are good books out there, so….)

One good Christian book I’ve read is the Mark of the Lion trilogy by Francine Rivers. It consists of A Voice in the Wind, An Echo in the Darkness, and As Sure as the Dawn. The main character, Hadassah, is a Jewish Christian who is taken captive after the fall of Jerusalem (around AD 70-ish, I believe) and is sold as a slave in Rome. The family that buys her, the Valerians, is a wealthy Roman family that includes Decimus, the stern and somewhat controlling father; Phoebe, his caring and deeply religious wife; Julia, Hadassah’s spoiled and impatient mistress; and Marcus, Julia’s hot and cynical older brother. There is also Atretes, a German cheiftain who is taken captive as a gladiator.

One thing about this series: There is no question as to what the author’s faith is. Yet I didn’t find the narrative preachy at all. During most of the first book, Hadassah does despair over the fact that she has never told any of the Valerians about Jesus, but her reasons for not doing so are good: she’s very timid and this around the same time that Christians were mercilessly persecuted for their faith. Rather than having the non-Christain characters (or pretty much everyone but Hadassah) sit down on a rock and ponder how lost and empty they are every few pages, Rivers shows the emptiness of their lives and how each one responds to the corruption of Rome.

So yeah. I think that’s a good example of how to do Christian fiction right. Any other thoughts?

A quick warning: I wouldn’t recommend this series for anyone under 14. Although it’s a teriffic story, it’s also very raw. Violence, sex (implied and somewhat discussed but never shown)....pretty much an extremely gritty portrayal of decaying Rome.

I love Francine Rivers. She’s an amazing author. Have you read Redeeming Love? It’s the retelling of Hosea in the California goldrush.

I loved LoG.

I’ve read Leota’s Garden but after that I really have to catch up. Have you read any Lori Wick?

Can’t say I’ve read Lori Wick, for the same reason as swenson. Have either of you read any Lynn Austin?

^^I think I do what you do.

Well I have to link this here.

^^Is that the one with the guy from Growing Pains?

I don’t know—haven’t seen Growing Pains either. It has Kirk Cameron in it.

That’s the guy.

This is my view exactly! My problem is that I like urban fantasy etc. So I’m halfway between the two. If I introduce fairies, do I end up with a story in which Christinaity has a place, or do I just write and see what happens? I tend to want to work out how this would affect doctrine, etc, instead of just writing the story. For me, my view is, unfortunately, that you can’t have two supernatural elements in there. It’s God or fairies.

Well, as a nonbleiver, I almost certainly have a different view of the issue, but I think it would be fun to contemplate how the existence faeries or werewolves would change christian doctrine. After all, Christianity has adapted to face incredible changes in society and culture in its 2000 years. If it could survive the discovery of the New World and the introduction of a heliocentric solar system, I think that it could handle some supernatural creatures. Again, it depends on how you understand your faith, but I think it would be interesting to contemplate how your faith-informed worldview would change if a race of faeries (or something equally fantastic) was discovered.

I really don’t see how a world with fairies in it would have any impact on Christianity in the first place.

And mystical creatures in the real world is definitely a problem! Especially vampires and succubi and such- creatures that do have their roots in. . . well, sin. You can either completely change their natures so they don’t resemble what they are in the first place, coughcoughyouknowwho or just portray them as they are, I suppose.

I feel the need to point out that the first half of Christianity’s existence (and long before that) people seemed to honestly believe the fey people existed and… the religion is still around. (you suppose they were hunted to extinction?) So if you’re wondering how it would be, I’d say just do some reading of what the ancient fathers said about it.

OR, if they actually existed from Creation/the Big Bang/whichever idea you subscribe to, wouldn’t their roots be in… God?

puts on theological thinking cap Not necessarily. In Leviticus—and several other places, I believe—God tells the Israelites that eating/ drinking the blood of any creature is a sin; therefore, you must drain the blood before you eat it. Throughout both the Old and New Testaments, blood is important as a symbol of atonement (sacrificing animals as a temporary solution to sin; Jesus’ blood shed in atonement on the cross) and of life (it’s a person’s life force, what keeps them alive and probably why God says drinking blood is wrong). I think this would come into play with vampires, since they must drink blood to survive, committing sin. I don’t think God would create vampires and then call what they did sin. A more theologically correct conclusion would be that they were humans who embraced immortality offered by the devil and as a result were eternally cursed. This would explain why sunlight turns them to ash (God is light; in I think 1st or 2nd Peter he is called “the Father of heavenly lights”) and why they need blood to survive (separated from God, they are dependent on evil for their existance, and symbolic murder is what keeps them alive).

And now I have an itch to write vampires like that. D:

As do I, oddly enough…..

I’d come in last, almost for certain. XD

Or a collaboration party. We can sit around pretentiously sipping tomato juice and discussing what might happen if Batman found the secret coven of vampires.

Sounds like a plan to me. Bring your own tomato juice.

That’s probably an internet law somewhere: the longer a thread lasts the less on topic it becomes.

Hitler-worshipping Nazi racist.

I’m in the mood for…pancakes!

KETTLECORN!!!

No, BUT NOW I WANT TO! Thankyou for restoring some semblance of order to this thread, Nate.

I really don’t see how a world with fairies in it would have any impact on Christianity in the first place.

I had a really great debate going on about this in my head but then I forgot it. So that sucks. But anyway. I was babysitting for this Christian couple who LOVE sci-fi. They said Supernatural was more satanic than anything else. Then they lent me Firefly.

They were saying about occult rituals and stuff?

How were they presented negatively? Just curious.

No, as being negative. When her husband starts actually being nice to her on the love dare, and she tells her friends, they go, “my cousin had the same thing happen to her. He was just buttering her up for a divorce, and he walked away with most of everything. So you be careful.”

My dad goes, “See, only a woman could turn a positive situation into a negative that quick.”

I mean, I love my dad, but I wanted to snot him one at that remark. So I said, “Yeah, but it’s not positive from her friend’s point of view. f that had happened to my cousin, I would have told my friend about it.”

Then he goes, “But he was being nice to her…”

ANd it just sort of went downhill from there.

Also, I still can’t believe he said that to me in the first place!

Anyway.

Wait, how are “Tai Chi” symbols occult?

His Dark Materials, they KILL God.

No, they don’t.

No, they don’t. It really irks me when people hate on certain things in His Dark Materials that never happened.

Spoilers for what does happen:

I was hardly paying attention by the end of Amber Spyglass, so I don’t really remember (or particularly care) what happened. Though I recall it was all quite odd and confusing.

I was hardly paying attention by the end of Amber Spyglass, so I don’t really remember (or particularly care) what happened. Though I recall it was all quite odd and confusing.

Same here.

I’m actually not sure what happened with God in The Amber Spyglass, all I know is that they didn’t kill him.

According to wiki (so, you know)

Ironically, the Authority dies of his own frailty when Will and Lyra unknowingly free him from the crystal prison where Metatron trapped him.

So it wasn’t quite murder 1, just manslaughter apparently.

So we got lucky. Soon wiki might remove that detail. lol

I have to say, I consider the idea of God accidentally dying more insulting than someone seeking Him out and killing Him. I mean they had to get the Romans involved to bring Jesus down.

@TakuGifian

Anmd implying that Satan is an equal to God is tantamount to blasphemy, isn’t it?

Yes, considering that he’s basically a fallen angel.

Need I mention, Jesus was born under a certain sign, and was visited by three astrologers according to the Bible?

I suppose that you can read it that way, if you substitute “sign” for “star” and “astrologers” for “wise men” in the original text. In other words, no.

The Bible is actually very opposed to astrology; it always mentions it in a strongly negative light.

Heh, OK.

Nice one, Nate.

I just had this huge conversation with my dad about the good vs bad points of Firefly (such as a prostitute being the ‘wise guru’ and having a high status) and whether Shepherd Book is just a token preacher (unfortunately, we decided that he was). It was pretty interesting.

Deborah, thanks for reminding me about this topic, as I’m sure everyone will enjoy John C Wright’s final word on the topic. (you’ll even find me in the comments some)

You linked that elsewhere, didn’t you? I seem to recall reading it before… but that’s fine, it’s a good article and I’m happy to reread it! :D

Also, I just adore the line about Unclean Spirits of the Dark… well, except for Angel and Edward, who are clearly Unclean Spirits of the Dim.

I read that book! I remember really enjoying it.

You might also try pretty much anything by Francine Rivers, Lynn Austin, and Frank Peretti. A lot of Ted Dekker’s stuff is good, too, but not everything. And CS Lewis’ Till We Have Faces is one of the best books I’ve ever read.