Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories

Vanilla 1.1.8 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome Guest!
Want to take part in these discussions? If you have an account, sign in now.
If you don't have an account, apply for one now.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2014
     
    I've been reading through the reviews, comments and sporks of City of Bones recently, and one thought keeps occurring to me. 'I think I could make this better'.

    The story and characters do have great potential in my eyes, (I like the concept of Jace far, far more than his execution), and there's genuinely awesome ideas and opportunities there that weren't capitalised on, or that maybe only became apparent with hindsight. I'm not that good, but I think it'd be an interesting exercise (not to mention good practice) to take the critiques and advice mentioned in sporks and stuff and trying to rewrite a story using it.

    Is this allowed under IIs rules and stuff, and would anyone be interested in reading/critiquing it if I did so?
    •  
      CommentAuthorpugbutter
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2014
     

    AFAIK, as long as you’re not profiting from it, Fair Use protects it.

    •  
      CommentAuthorApep
    • CommentTimeOct 12th 2014
     

    Sounds like a good idea to me – you couldn’t do any worse than Clare did.

    And eventually altering the finer details and publishing it would be the ultimate irony.

  1.  

    •  
      CommentAuthorResistance
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2014
     

    I’d read it. I think the story has potential, if re-worked etc. If you just took the book and applied all the sporkers comments to it, it probably wouldn’t be so bad once you’d gotten it all figured out.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPryotra
    • CommentTimeOct 15th 2014
     

    I’ll do it.

    Ironically, the novel that my friend and I have been working on/are revising, actually started out as ‘we can do better’ when we watched the show, so glad to help someone else how felt the same thing.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2014
     
    I'm really happy to see some folks are interested! Granted, there's no guarantee I can improve the quality (I'm hardly a paragon of excellence here) but tis worth a shot. I will say, the longer I think of it, the more I am enamoured of the idea. Though I can't tell if I'm more excited at having such good practice on my hands, or getting to kick the crap out of the characters a bit.
    •  
      CommentAuthorApep
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2014
     

    I’m hardly a paragon of excellence here

    Let’s be honest – neither is Clare. She might be better if she actually seemed to give a crap, but she clearly doesn’t.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2014
     
    I've ended up just making a ton of 'might-dos' and 'should-dos' and such for this now. I'd super appreciate any suggestion people have, I'm already combing the sporks I know of and stuff ^^;

    Here's a few of what I have so far.

    -Jace makes terrible jokes at bad times. He is actually not meant to be funny (coping mechanic? Sad Clown like DA2 Purple Hawke).
    -Clary is the one who gets attacked by Eidolonguy at Pandemonium. She later remembers the situation as some totally normal guy until sees Jace again or something.
    -Jace shows some human concern (if rolling with him meant to have higher empathy and whatnot. still damaged as balls though, but that's not meant to be hot).
    -No love triangle.
    -Something for Isabelle, Simon and Alex besides being Grr Chick, Awkward Human Friend and The Gay One.
    -Magnus Bane being flamboyant (beyond what I imaginee to be his natural OTTness ) because he’s spent seven centuries being all serious he’s gonna live it up now/I'm rich lets party/still getting over the sixties like DAMN or something , not just because ‘I gay, I faaaabulous!’
    -Shadowhunters actually criticised for their racist attitudes. This racism marybe originating not from not being inherently superior (because *facepalm*) but because they fear they would be resentful of such ‘blindness’, the ability to live a life free of the duties and trials of being a Shdowhunter, and thus they'd seek to rule instead of protect. Could also be why apparently ignorant of human things? Valentine held as example of when a SH fails to do this.
    -Region-specific myths (Jace never wants to go to Japan because he hates toilet-ghosts)
    -Not Nephilim, but perhaps a divine gift?
    -No slut-shaming.
    -Needs more nerd positivity (poor simon)?
    -Kinda want a Witcher reference, just because.
    -Use knives instead of those stele things?
    •  
      CommentAuthorPryotra
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2014
     

    I’ll give a couple ideas/suggestions:

    -Jace changes as a character. Like, he starts out as a racist pig, but interaction with Clary and Simon change him for the better. Maybe he gets a hobby or something that’s completely normal.
    -Possible idea taken from the movie, Simon uses weapons like a flamethrower.
    -Stuff from American folklore. Like Raven, Coyote, or the Windigo (not as a monster but as the spirit of winter and insanity)
    -Allec isn’t attracted to Jace. It’s possible to be gay and not find your close friend attractive.

    I really like your ideas, particularly that no one thinks that Jace is being funny and the region specific folklore. It’s way more in the ‘all the myths are true’ and the lack of Nephilim. That also also allows people to have different religious views without being Flat Earth Atheists. I’m really looking forwards to what you do.

    Oh, by the way guys, if you want to see a REALLY rough draft of the first chapters of my story, here you go.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2014
     
    Oh, I was definitely not going to have Alec being into Jace and certainly not being really freaking jealous (also kick me if you like, but I kinda like Magnus/Alec for the whole 'get out the closet, you idiot, I love you' and grouchy love angles >_>; ). Definitely protective of him,possibly once thought he had a crush on him because apparently only other teen dude he gets to hang out with, but I much prefer the thing of these two guys being kickass close as heck blood brothers/'parabati' with zero unrequited love or 'no homo' stuff between them.

    I now have the image of Jace getting super into videogame, playing the Witcher and just being like 'omg I love Geralt he is the man I wish to be'. XD

    Oooh! *clicky*

    One of my notes is about the incest thing, actually.
    I'm actually going to keep the 'HAAA, YOU ARE FAMILY' angle, because I think it can be worked right, if worked as a 'psychological warfare tactic' thing. There's some changes though (which are liable to change again, depending on input or my own hindsight) and it's probably fanficcy as heck. ^^;

    For one, having it that Jace had always believed that he is Valentine's son, and that he's actually turned his back on his father (this could tie into the future Sebastian the real son thing, and Jace could even have memories of a brother who somehow failed Valentine before). Because to me, it felt silly that first it was like 'JACE, YOU ARE MINE' and then 'CLARY, SO ARE YOU' because two such reveals so close together is kinda cheap, and I find the idea of Valentine's son knowingly fighting against his father's side, against his own upbringing, to be kinda more interesting. Also works really well with Jace's 'I fight to look like a good guy' thing he seems to have going.

    Two, playing up the emotional devastation something like that would have on two people that are pretty emotionally wounded and very close, Valentine rubbing it in Jace's face that without his guidance he's ended up in love with Valentine's daughter and his own sister, and the fracture in Jace and Clary's relationship as they try resolve their romantic feelings into being familial ones. I could see a villain realising that there's confusion there, and taking advantage to destabilise these two people to make them easier targets.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPryotra
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2014
     

    I agree. His knowingly fighting his own father who he knows is evil is a great idea, and adds to his character drama, and that being used as warfare actually works in that context. Particularly since this Jace would have been raised since birth to be a killing machine, and that could be what Valentine used against him. Basically that he doesn’t have a will, can’t make decisions and shouldn’t be allowed to function without someone holding his leash, and if Jace is shown getting close to Clary, getting closer to her world, and starting to stabilize as a person far better than he ever had before it hits harder.

    As long as it’s an actual struggle and not played for the angst, it’s a clever idea, and could lead to interesting situations where they will do something really close and possible intimate, get kind of awkward and be all ‘lol siblings’ and back off.

    And Clary doesn’t just date Simon because…reasons.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2014
     
    Now I'm just seeing Jace channelling Anders from DA2, but even more awkward.
    "I would drown us both in a river of blood to keep you safe!"
    "Oh, uh... great? You're, um... a really... protective brother. Good for you...?"
    "...of course. Brother urge to protect. That's me. Yeah,"
    "Right. Right. ...good to know."
    "...I'll go."

    Because Simon will always be (I will probably mess him up) way too awesome for Clary. *nods*
    In honesty, I do want to preserve some of the original stuff, and the romance with Jace is basically central to a load of the stuff even with the changes (and the first objective for this was making him not a major assburger XD). Plus, I think I actually think a Simon/Clary romance wouldn't work for either character, though not sure exactly why. I think I just really love the idea of him being this awesome loyal friend that doesn't need romantic love to be ready to storm the gates. He'll do it anyway, because that's just what a best friend does. Romantically, I rather keep him by himself or maybe with one of the Lightwood siblings.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPryotra
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2014
     

    I agree. Since the romance is central to a lot of stuff, it should still be, it just needs to work well.

    Though I the friend who I’m writing the book with would probably want me to give a vote for Simon/Isabella because she thought that the scene in the movie where he was helping her walk while using a flamethrower in the middle of a fight was adorable.

    And yay for actual friendship. It’s fun to see all kinds of love in a story, not just romantic.

    Oh, thing with Allec and Magnus, it might be interesting if they had kind of a slow burn going on in the background, since Allec is deep in the closet and Magnus has apparently been hurt before, and rather than just thinking that Allec is cute, Magnus actually has a reason to like Allec, so their romance is treated just like any other.

    I think that Clare wasn’t quite able to separate herself from ‘look at me, aren’t I open minded?’

    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2014
     
    I actually adore romance in stuff, so I intend to put in a lot of effort to make sure it's done right (and force people to actually betaread it). But really, I'm all about the feels, platonic and romantic. So yeah, a slow burn is definite. I mean, Alec is a guy who is part of an apparently more-repressive-than-average-society secret society, and Magnus has seen centuries of people. It must take far more than just looks for either of them, or it's just Token Gay Couple To Show Progressiveness. ...which I guess it pretty much is in the canon. ._.

    So, would it make sense to submit this rewrite as an article to the site, or...?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 18th 2014 edited
     
    I've figured out the general gist of Alec and Isabelle's characters, some vague personality and such. Would appreciate feedback from people. >_>;

    Alec is the eldest of the Lightwood siblings, and also Team Leader of their little cell overall (though rarely takes point in fights, being more a support role kinda guy). He's the knowledge base of the group, with the most knowledge of magic and how it works, their weaponry, tactics, etc. Alec realises that his family is essentially blacklisted in all but name by the Clave for having been affiliated with Valentine, even though they were pardoned, and he's constantly pushing himself and Isabelle to be the best of the best, so that the Clave and the other Shadowhunter families will HAVE to respect the Lightwoods again someday. His being gay does tie into this, since he feels he can never admit it without basically undoing all his hard work to erase the stain on the family name. He's the most uptight and also kinda racist of the group because of all this.

    Isabelle also knows about the blacklisting, but unlike Alec, she doesn't care. She's of the opinion that these people have already made their minds up about them anyway, so she's refused to drag herself across the coals to please minds that won't be changed. She still takes being a Shadowhunter seriously though, and understands how important this is for Alec, so she helps him handle the social side of things since he's not as good with people as she is (obviously, she puts on the greatest respects when she's doing it on his behalf). She's sort of their contact base, and it's pretty promising that in the future, she'll be that person who know someone for every task. Isabelle is the most 'mundie'-friendly of the group, though she was still raised with that kind of smug superiority that makes her be less forgiving of regular people than she should be.

    Obviously, the two occasionally get into arguments over their different attitudes. I'm going to try keep the narration from sounding like it's taking either one's side.

    Also, finding a new word for normal humans in this. Mundie and mundane are basically going to be used as insults or ignorantly offensive terminology respectively.
  2.  

    Possible ways to replace “mundie”:

    • “Civilian/Civvie,” kind of how the military or law enforcement might view your average citizen. This might fit in with Shadowhunters as protectors of normal humans. You could use the Latin term for “citizens” ( cives ) when referring to the collective group in a formal setting.
    • Don’t use a specific term. Since Shadowhunters are human, they may not necessarily need to come up with a word for “normal humans.” They could instead differentiate normal humans from members of the elite by using phrases like “She’s one of us” or “Our colleague/friend.” I think this was how the Mafia used to identify trusted members to each other.
    • “Uninitiated” or “Unseeing” or some similar adjective used as noun to show that normal humans haven’t been introduced to the Shadow World. You could have Shadow Hunters refer to normal humans as being “blind to the world” or something like that.
    • A bit of a stretch but given how Anglo-Saxon the Shadow Hunters appear to be (despite the location of their homeland), you could use the Old English bearn or “child.” So you can still get the sense that the Shadow Hunters look down on normal humans, but in a more paternalistic way.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2014
     

    Well, given that the ability to see glamours and stuff in the series is referred to as the Sight, I’m thinking a term like ‘Sightless’ might work, with another term to denote people who should be Sightless but aren’t. It could tie into the idea that Shadowhunters and Downworlders underestimate normal humans; even though they do have the capacity for the Sight, they’re considered blind as a whole.

    •  
      CommentAuthorApep
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2014
     

    I like it. And I can totally see using “blind” as an insult.

    Honestly, though, my problem with “mundane/mundie” wasn’t so much the term as how it always felt like an insult. It’s the context that pushes my rage-button.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2014
     

    True. In a different context, I could honestly see a word like ‘mundie’ being friendly teasing or affectionate, like someone going “Good job, mundie” and then highfiving the person in question. Chances are that I’ll keep the original terminology as well, with it being slang or something.

    Oh, regarding current progress on this: currently working on Valentine’s character, and rewriting the first chapter.

  3.  
    @Apep I'm with you there. I can get how an elite warrior class or some-such could turn into jerks and look down on those they're supposed to protect. The problem with the Shadowhunters was that they did jack for anyone and just sat around feeling superior. It could've been written as an indictment of an organization/political structure that has outlived its usefulness (c.f. English landed gentry in the 18th-19th centuries, having shed much of the law enforcement and local defense roles that they used to take on in the Middle Ages). But we just had to accept CC's word that the Shadowhunters were kicking ass and defending the helpless when they weren't moping around.

    @SarahSyna Can't wait for the first chapter! How do you foresee to changing Valentine's character? To CC's credit, his motives were realistic; we have plenty of militant extremists who firmly believe that "Group A" will forever be an existential threat to one's people and thus preemptively killing them off is the only "rational" thing to do. As Apep's sporking noted so often, CC ruined the character with comical ineptness and desire to just about talk to everyone like some needy kid who's compelled to be the center of attention. I also thought it was odd that demons were so willing to work with Valentine given his aim to wipe them out. Maybe they're more like insects and lack the capability for much forethought (e.g. they respond to simple positive/negative stimuli but can't think ahead enough to understand that helping Valentine is sealing their own fate). That just doesn't seem that convincing though even as I write since they're so apparently powerful. Only the Raveners seem to behave entirely on instinct.
    •  
      CommentAuthorApep
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2014
     

    I also thought it was odd that demons were so willing to work with Valentine given his aim to wipe them out.

    I’m more bothered by Valentine’s willingness to use them. It’s like the Grand High Wizard of the KKK hiring the Black Panthers to hassle some mixed-race couples. It just doesn’t work.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPryotra
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2014
     

    I’m more bothered by Valentine’s willingness to use them. It’s like the Grand High Wizard of the KKK hiring the Black Panthers to hassle some mixed-race couples. It just doesn’t work.

    The more I think about it, the more that image applies.

    •  
      CommentAuthorApep
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2014
     

    I’m pretty proud of the analogy.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2014
     

    I can almost definitely guarantee that Valentine will not be working with demons, unless literally everything hinges on something only a demon can do for him. Though an actually smart villain would find a way to not end up in that situation to begin with, so… y’know, unlikely.

  4.  
    I suppose it would be too drastic a surgery to change the name of the villain...Valentine...I just keep thinking about the dude in the Guy Fawkes mask.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2014
     

    I actually don’t mind the name so much, possibly because it makes me think of Batman (Valentine -> Val -> Val Kilmer. XD). I really wish I knew WHY he was named that though.

  5.  

    Why is anyone’s name anything? Valentine is a real name, after all. :P

  6.  
    A propos of nothing, Valentine is apparently the name of Ian Fleming's dad. And of course many martyred saints and one Pope who lasted all of 2 months.
    •  
      CommentAuthorApep
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     

    It’s also a nine-letter name that begins with a v, like the villain of a certain franchise which CC was very familiar with. Just sayin’.

    • CommentAuthorDeborah
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014 edited
     

    You could always come up with a reason why he’s called Valentine. Maybe it’s a family name, and he’s proud of his heritage. Or maybe you can have someone say, “Yes, his name sounds funny, but never tell him that. You don’t want to know what happened to the last person who laughed at it.” I think that if you write a villain well enough, even things that would not normally be menacing can become so when they are associated with him or her. Like in The Hunger Games, where roses become creepy because of their association with President Snow. So if Valentine makes himself frightening enough, people can forget the fact that his name sounds silly, because they’ll be thinking of all the horrible things that he does. Maybe Clary could initially think his name sounds silly—until she finds out some of the stuff he’s done.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014 edited
     

    think that if you write a villain well enough, even things that would not normally be menacing can become so when they are associated with him or her.

    Just butting in to say I agree. A friend of mine years ago wrote a story in which the villain saying “And a pen” was somehow the most frightening line ever. So Valentine can be a perfectly menacing name, if you write the character well. Just look at Fontaine from Bioshock. Or should I say, would you kindly look at Fontaine from Bioshock.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSarahSyna
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2014
     

    Well, I can’t guarantee he’ll be anything special, but at the very least, he will be more effective than in canon.

    ...I should set myself a higher bar than that.

    He’s going to be a right bastard, but an understandable though not forgiveable one. XD