You’re a nublar. hmph

Seriously, though, to kick off the discussion, will someone please tell me the secret to beginnings? Because I have discovered I am bad at them. I have no less than five mostly-written beginnings for my current WiP (rewrite of last year’s NaNo that I haven’t gotten sick of yet), with many more I could think of that haven’t been written down yet, and I simply don’t know how to tell which one would be best.

I know the advice about starting as close to the action as possible. The problem is, I’m not sure where exactly that is, and how far in front of the action you should start. Here’s the basic plot of the story’s beginning:

An enslaved magician named something-or-other is forced to help steal MacGuffin #98762. (this is MMC #1)
When the theft of said MacGuffin comes out, Astrith (FMC) gets accused of it. Because of the lack of evidence, it’s going to go on her head even though she’s innocent, so her friend Nolus (MMC #2) gets her to go on the run instead.
Shortly thereafter, Something-Or-Other gets up the courage to escape from his keepers.
Wild adventures ensue.

So far, here’s where I’ve tried beginning it:
1. in the aftermath of the theft, with Astrith and Nolus traveling away from the city
2. immediately after Astrith and Nolus go on the run, when they’re escaping through the city streets
3. with Something-Or-Other escaping from his keepers
4. with Something-Or-Other and his keepers right before the theft
5. with Astrith and Nolus enjoying peace and quiet right before the theft

So to make this a more general question (and not just applicable to me), where do you think the best place to start a story is? Right in the middle of the action? (2 and 3) Right after the major action, focusing more on the fallout from it? (1) Or right before the action, giving more time to settle in before the big inciting event comes along? (4 and 5)

Or does it really all depend on circumstance and I have to figure it out myself? :)

I would go with #4. Start out with just before the theft, write the theft, then (if you switch POV in your story), jump to Nolus and relate Astrith’s accusation from his POV (if that works).

Would killing a main character be classified as a clichéd plot twist?

@Taku thanks :) I’ll keep going and hopefully my character death will hit the reader where it hurts. In a good way.

@swenson Well, my character death is one of those things in the story that should happen- but I don’t want it to be interpreted as formulaic and boring. Should I make sure that I feel the after-effects through the rest of the story?

Should I make sure that I feel the after-effects through the rest of the story?

YES. Always yes to this question. If your character’s death doesn’t affect anyone (and it needs to affect them longer than just during the death scene), then it’s pointless and probably just for shock value or because it “should” happen.

Afgreed, the effects need to be lasting and deep, especially for characters close to the one who dies. For example, Your characters need to react to the death of a loved one the way anybody would react to it. Some people take years to get over it, especially if they blame themselves for it.

Okay, so I’m looking for some help plotting for NaNoWriMo. I have a set up, but I since I’m planning on writing a mystery, this isn’t the kind of thing I can go into blind.

Anyway, here’s the basic idea – Dashiell Hammett meets Gary Gygax. A PI gets a letter from a sort-of friend, and the letter contains a geas (magic compulsion, if you don’t know). The PI has to solve his friend’s murder, or he’ll die/go crazy/something bad will happen to him.

So, who killed this guy, and why? Any thoughts?

So what sort of world are we working with? Obviously a fantasy one with a geass in the working, but are we talking about a world like Greyhawk where everything wonky can be blamed on a wizard and magic is a well known or are we going with a World of Darkness/Dresden Files secret world angle? What era is this set in? How does death work? Is there necromancy?

A good fantasy detective story needs to take into account everything about the world in question. Even a basic murder story changes drastically when you can cast Speak with Dead on the victim.

Okay, re: setting. Dashiell Hammett wrote detective stories. His most well-known was probably The Maltese Falcon. So we’re not quite working with an Urban Fantasy setting, but more like D&D crossed with Film Noir – it’s like the 1950’s, but with elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. Guess it’s my fault for assuming you guys knew who I was talking about. My bad.

Yes, magic exists and is commonly practiced, but I’m putting necromancy and associated stuff as illegal at best, if only to avoid the numerous issues that crop up with being able to raise the dead.

And sansa, that’s kind of my problem – I don’t have an ending to work back from. That’s why I’m asking for ideas, if only to get me started. I figured now would be a good time to ask, so I can work out a general plot outline by November.

This would help justify the magical compulsion element’s presence. Perhaps the killer was under a compulsion of his or her own or something, even.

Well, if you can just compel someone to do anything, then things get futile really fast. A geas had better be very expensive, in one way or another.

Well, I have some thoughts about that. The victim maybe isn’t so much a friend of the PI as he is an underworld contact – the kind who tends to cause more problems than he solves, so him dying wouldn’t be unexpected. And the death might look like a suicide, and due to being a known criminal, the cops wouldn’t be all that interested in digging into it. Plus, then it looks like the friend is screwing with the PI.

Ooo, there’s an idea. Or at least part of one.

Also, I’m not intending this kind of compulsion to be all that easy to make.

Didn’t that only happen the one time? And it was more “I have to help out the guy who would have gleefully executed me a few years ago”?

Now, “I have to help this person who is at best not actively hostile to me and the only reason I’m doing it is because I’m too scared not to”? Yeah, that’s got Harry Dresden written all over it.

Joined a website where I have to review 4 pieces in two days. The first one I got stuck into reads like badly written fanfiction, except it’s not fanfiction. Any ideas on how I could objectively critique this guy’s writing without ripping my hair out?

Remove yourself emotionally from the position of “reader”, e.g. don’t try to read it for enjoyment, but read it as one would read a research paper that you are skimming for essay quotes?

If you can’t do that, read through it once quickly to get the gist of the story, then go through paragraph by paragraph, as you would a spork, and write your thoughts on a separate bit of paper. When finished, read through your notes, take the three or four most common problems that you picked up and write a bit about that. Throw out your original notes, and then write some bullshit about something nonsepecific (i.e. something nebulous that doesn’t have specific textual examples), you can claim to have liked, e.g. the ‘pacing’ or the ‘voice’ or the ‘theme’.

That’s what I do, anyway. Unless I’m reading for someone who actually wants constructive feedback, in which case I finish at step two and give them my running notes, grouped into thematic clusters with suggestions for how to improve each problem area.

Run on sentences everywhere (there’s a sentence the size of a paragraph that is just riddled with commas), he forgets to capitalise the beginnings of his sentences, proper noun/normal noun confusion, the list just goes on.

It sounds like you’d have enough for an objective critique if there’s such glaring problems with the writing. It doesn’t look like you’d need to give it the amount of focus to the point that you’d want to rip your hair out.

Potatoman, if the person’s writing is that bad, and they can’t even get basic grammar right, I would be honest with them. Not in a mean way, but I’d tell them that the grammatical errors are so egregious that they take away from the story to the point that you cannot get into it at all. Then I’d probably write up a grammar lesson for them, containing worst errors. I did that once, and the person didn’t seem offended by it. I usually try to say something positive as well, but if you can’t, you can’t. Unless this a like a ten year old or something, and you don’t want to completely crush their spirit.

You mean for an article or essay? (author, date.)

e.g. “The chapter begins with Valentine establishing himself as probably one of the best characters in the whole book, because despite the fact that Clary drew a knife on him, he isn’t even remotely intimidated by her. Nice to have confirmation of that.” (Apep, 2003)

and then the long form in your citations list will be Pep, A 2003, City of Bones: Chapter 23 – Valentine [review], ImpishIdea. retrieved 29/10/13

edit: I’m actually not sure where in standard referencing you would use only the author’s last name and a page number. The Harvard system uses the in-text form (author, date, page) or the shorter (author, date) with a standard bibliography, and the Oxford system notes the entire citation in a foot or end note, in the standard form of [author’s last name, initial date, title, publisher, city.]

you’d be best suited to using the reference format the school gives you, then, but for the sake of further studies/college etc it would be wise to be familiar with the Harvard and Oxford systems so you can use them when necessary.

I just used Taku’s example from above; the a/n had no page numbers for some reason.

Pep, A

Love it.

I like MLA, personally. That’s what we use for analyzing literature. I don’t like APA, which is what we use for most every other discipline. APA looks like the Harvard system to me. There’s also Chicago style, which I know nothing about.

Chicago/Turabian style is not “weird”, it just includes more detail. Since it’s used for history writing, they tend to want information like what version of the text you’re using (assuming there are multiple printings), or when you accessed the website. On the off chance that someone might actually want to check your work.

Sorry, I used MLA all through high school, and then had to learn Chicago/Turabian in college. Yes, it’s annoying that there’re multiple citation styles.

Don’t force humor. Ever.

Don’t force humor. Ever.

Don’t force humor. Ever.

Don’t force humor. Ever.

Don’t force humor. Ever.

Don’t force humor. Ever.

Don’t force humor. Ever.

x ∞

Avoid attacking the author as much as possible

x ∞ +1

Okay, a bit of a writing-related request: I’ve got a short story (just under 1600 words) that I’d like some feedback on before sending it off to some people. It’s more of the stuff that I sold to that anthology (fantasy/comedy, even has the same protagonists). I’d like to send this out as soon as possible, but since it’s so short, I can’t imagine it taking long too read.

Any takers?

Cool. Send me your email (either whisper or post on my wall). I know I’ve sent stuff to other people here, but I keep misplacing that info.

I’ll probably send it out this Friday. Any and all feedback is welcome.

Sure, I’ll have a read of it.

Thanks! (Let’s just hope that makes up for my comma abuse).

cool, I’ll get back to you in a day or so.

Oh shoot, I forgot I was going to look at that. Life has been ridiiiiculously busy. Send it my way and I’ll get back to you, though.

How do most of you intrepid a “dark skinned man”? I got in a disagreement with a co-worker over this and I’m curious what the common consensus is.

I usually read it as a POC, yeah. Usually tanned skin is described along the lines of “he had a deep tan from years in the sun” or some bullshit like that. “dark skinned” more often refers to a POC than to a white dude with a suntan.

I would read dark-skinned to mean quite dark skin—not dark for a white person, but dark for skin in general. Not necessarily African/Indian, but definitely not just a tan.

But I guess people do interpret things differently. It’s difficult to write a description that everyone sees the same way.

I would read “dark-skinned” as a person with a tan, but that’s just me under the influence of my Asian culture. Like sansa said, I think it depends on the context.

If you’re calling it filler yourself, you probably shouldn’t be writing it.

e: To give you more helpful advice, if you have story business that absolutely must be done there and not somewhere else, come up with an interesting mechanic or premise for the scene that underlines the exposition being delivered or the characterization you’re trying to get at.

Find a Thing to Do. Or better yet, ThingS.

Anyone have advice on writing an abstract?

Holy shit yo. Pare that down. I had to read it like 3 times to parse it as it stands.

Irony in “thing” illustrates that misinterpretation leads to [detriment for those who misinterpret.]

I still don’t like the bracketed phrase because it feels roundabout and passive but I’m not gonna rewrite it for you. Besides that, the first version is stuffed with a bunch of useless filler constructions that do nothing but kill the juice.

Granted, this is for high school English I assume so there’s lots of shitty writing habits being taught and I imagine your teacher may expect you to jump through certain hoops that leads to phrases like “is used to help illustrate” but if you just want to write something clear and effective, clean off the barnacles.

How many stretches of nothing is too much nothing, in a Low Fantasy setting?

Since realism is generally preferred over arbitrary action/tension, I’ve been describing the journey as mostly slow, with plenty of characterization; out of 130,000 words, there have been maybe 5-6 actual conflicts, and the entire book is building up to one large event.

From what I can tell (a large grain of salt needed here, as I’ve not done much editing yet), the worst “padding” is during reminiscent moments; since the characters were sent on a mission by an enigmatic character, promised great rewards for success, yet they don’t know his motivations entirely, many quieter moments are spent speculating on what exactly he’s doing with their abilities…how he’s utilizing, and possibly manipulating them.

Interesting question.

Given that you’re hero’s having magically-induced flashbacks, I’d say don’t present them as flashbacks – instead, have him think it’s real, then realize, “wait, this has happened before!” Maybe he tries to change things, but it doesn’t work, so he ends up feeling guilty (or more guilty, as the case may be).

As to whether you should explain it more during the magic flashback or later, I’d say later. The flashback-thing can provide some basic details, and you flesh his backstory out later. The flashback sounds like it’s a very action-focused scene, and adding in a bunch of exposition would slow things down.

With regards to your other story, whether it being mostly flashbacks being the main problem or not is debatable. If you were told that by several people, it might be true, but if it was just the one, then it could just be an issue of preference. But hey, at least you got custom feedback on it!

I’d also point out that you don’t have to include counts. Yeah, a lot of sporkers do (including me) but they’re not really required.

This thread is old, but I just wanted to mention that me and some friends of mine have started a website with writing advice and reviews. Want me to link to it?

Here you go:
https://scrypticablog.wordpress.com/

For me, another big indicator of a Sue/Stu is that the world’s morality always matches theirs. If they do something, it is always correct and moral, even if that same action is condemned when other characters do it.

I’ve got a question for those of you who write historical fiction/historical fantasy. How do you deal with the massive amount of research needed? Do you do a bunch of background reading beforehand or just look it up as you go? I’ve been itching to write a Victorian-set urban fantasy for a while now but I’m absolutely obsessed with historical accuracy (thanks academia <.<). Unfortunately I also hate research (again, thanks academia <.<) so I’m put off by the thought of having to do hours of research on my setting before I even get to writing. It doesn’t help that it’s not my time period so I wouldn’t know where to start in terms of finding good source material. Anyone else dealt with this problem who could offer some advice?

Thanks for the tips Taku. I will definitive take the opportunity to make the most of my university’s archives before I leave this godforsaken place for good. I’m hoping that hating research is just a phase brought on by doing way too much of it over the last five years. I love the Victorian age but have never studied it so hopefully digging through the archives will be inspiring and not a chore.

Here’s a fun one: how do you write a sex scene? I’m asking because I’ve honestly no clue. I just cut to black any time anything in my stories implies the sexy times. Which seems inelegant and counter-productive.

I’ve read plenty of hilariously bad sex scenes and I think I get some of the do-nots: do not pull metaphors out of a hat; do not be gratuitously over-descriptive; do not include them at all unless they contribute to the narrative/character development; etc. I’m more interested, what are the ‘do’s? The only author I think I’ve read who I remember as being really good at writing sex scenes is Margaret Atwood, and emulating her style is beyond me. So what do you think, fellow writers who are hopefully better at this than me?

Yeah, I’d also recommend sticking with what you’re doing. Implication can work in your favor – whatever the reader imagines will always be better than anything you can write.