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    • CommentAuthorSakampa
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2011 edited
     

    deleted comment

    •  
      CommentAuthorWulfRitter
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2011
     

    First, let me tell you that I am impressed that you are undertaking writing a book in English. I know from some of the creative writing work I did in school for my foreign languages that it’s difficult to work with the grammar and convey the meaning of your story while still demonstrating your own creative style in a language that is not your first.

  1.  

    @Sakampa

    Hi this is part of my first chapter. I’m very interested in particular what you think of the prose. Feel free to criticize!
    There may be a lot grammar errors but you just have to bear with me, seeing im dutch :P

    Well, there’s your problem. It’s very obvious that English is a second language for you, because, while few of the words are wrong, you completely miss their subtleties. As a consequence, the whole piece has a very stilted, unnatural feel to it that just doesn’t work. I’d love to tell you what I think of your prose, but the simple fact is that I honestly can’t discern your prose through the language barrier.

    • CommentAuthorSakampa
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2011 edited
     

    @WulfRitter
    First of all thank you for the compliment.
    Actually I was planning on more narration about what was going on in his head, but was doubtful. Now I know it’s probably the best way to go.
    I must add that the questions you have about his surroundings etc. may be caused by the fact that this is page 3 of chapter 1. I posted this exact page merely because it has narration, dialogue and a bit of action.
    I have a better view on where to go now, so thank you for your time and maybe I’ll post something soon again!

    @Stellar Jetman
    I’m not sure if you “whispered” me or just posted a message, but I’ll reply like this.
    I was never aware that it was so obvious, as I posted here before, without mentioning my origin. Nobody ever said that about my excerpts. However that doesn’t mean Í won’t take your opinion serious.
    I’m curious if more people regard it like “stilted” or “not working”, or I’ll have to resort to writing in my own language or try and master the english language even harder.
    Thanks for pointing it out.
    PS: Can you point an artificial/stilted sentence out so I know exactly what you’re talking about?

    •  
      CommentAuthorWulfRitter
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2011
     

    @Sakampa –

  2.  

    @Sakampa

    I’m not sure if you “whispered” me or just posted a message, but I’ll reply like this.

    If I’d whispered you, you would have seen a message saying so, and my post would have been highlighted.

    Can you point an artificial/stilted sentence out so I know exactly what you’re talking about?

    Sure.

    “Swallowing became harder with a parched throat as he stood before the entry.”

    This sentence is technically correct, but nobody would ever phrase it this way. “His parched throat made swallowing difficult,” “It was hard to swallow with his parched throat,” and even “His throat parched with thirst, he swallowed with difficulty,” all read better. The main problem here is that you said “a parched throat”, which doesn’t imply possession. As far as I know (in the sense that this is a valid reading of the sentence, however nonsensical), the throat doesn’t even belong to the protagonist!

    Or this one:

    “Clamor from the lower floors shot through the lull ambiance and winded up the staircase.”

    “Lull” is not an adjective, and separating the clamor’s actions into two clauses breaks what would otherwise be a continuous feel to the sentence. Even disregarding that, though, clamor does not work that way. The word essentially means “the sound of a crowd of agitated people”, and visualizing it as something that can shoot through ambiance and wind up staircases is just bizarre. You’d hear it through the floor, if anything.

    How about this?

    “While suppressing sanity he stepped through the deformed opening and entered the hall itself”

    There are many things that I could go into here, but “supressing sanity” is, by far, the most baffling. Sanity is the opposite of insanity. Is he trying to become insane?

    “But these quickly lost his interest when he descried a human figure standing in the back.”

    Nobody says “descried”, except, probably, for Christopher Paolini. Just say “saw”.

    “The lurid star and moonlight beaming through the window wall”

    Starlight and moonlight aren’t “lurid”. This is lurid. And what’s a “window wall”? Is it a wall made out of glass or something?

    “Yes, in a profound way.”

    I get that this is supposed to be a dramatic line, but I have no idea of what the guy actually means when he’s saying it. How can expecting someone’s arrival, especially in these circumstances, exhibit profundity?

    “The man turned around flapping the end of his coat.”

    I have this mental image of the man picking up the tail of his coat and flapping it in the air. You wouldn’t talk about a guy “flapping” his coat any more than you’d talk about him “beating” his heart.

    “Your dumbstruck expression gave me all I wanted to know.”

    This would work better as something along the lines of, “Your dumbstruck expression told me everything.” Again, there’s nothing technically wrong with this sentence, but it doesn’t feel natural at all.

    “The man walked up to it and raised the lean blade over his shoulder. With a swift lash he shattered the glass and sent its glinting shards into the evening sky. Cool winds blew through the hall.”

    Three suspect words here:

    First, a blade can’t be “lean”. Yes, “lean” is a synonym for “thin”, but that refers to people. You’re basically saying that the blade doesn’t have any body fat.

    Second, “lash” implies the use of a whip or some other flexible object. “Slash” would be much more appropriate here.

    Third, “cool winds” really doesn’t fit the mood that you’re trying to convey. “Cool” isn’t a very energetic or emphatic word; when you say, “cool winds,” I think of something like a breeze. I don’t think of the “turbulent noise” that you mention afterwards at all. You can do two things to get around this, though – either use the adverb “harshly” to show that the winds really are blowing that hard, or use “cold” or “icy” in place of “cool”.

    “Gary yelled to compensate for the turbulent noise.”

    As before, there aren’t any grammatical errors here, but it just doesn’t sound natural. People don’t yell “to compensate for” noise; they yell “over” it. Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. That’s English for you.

    Sorry if I went overboard on this. I just figured that it would be best to address everything right here.

    • CommentAuthorSakampa
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2011
     

    @WulfRitter
    My own perception on the tips and comments so far, is that I sometimes want to use too poetic wording, I should just stick to my own vocabulary and I guess I’m too much affected by the Paolini way of writing. That way the words would be more accurate and less stilted, I believe… If you can point out a sentence that Stellar Jetman hasn’t yet commented on, you’re welcome to do so!
    In my humble opinion I don’t think my story/plot itself is bad, like you pointed out, you’re curious about what’s going to be next. It’s just the way of putting it in english. I really need to get my prose fixed.
    But other than weird stilted word usage, you can envision the situation? Is it compelling in its restricted way? (so not the plot but the way of writing, am I on the right track?)
    And is the fact that you’d like to see more of Gary’s thoughts not preference? I mean, don’t some writers keep the readers in the dark on purpose, or want to convey their personality in other ways than the narration of his thoughts? Or would it plainly enrich my story if I’d fill in that lack of being aware of Gary’s train of thought?
    Do you think my prose so far has potential (if edited accordingly) or would I be wasting my time if I’d ever want to get this published? (mission impossible so to speak)

    @Stellar Jetman
    Some really helpful stuff right there. I think you’re spot on, on alot of matters and alot of it needs no comment on my part but I want to zoom in on these things:

    “Supressing sanity” was meant as supressing rationality but thought the alliteration was smooth for some reason. So he was not trying to become insane, but intendedly ignoring the warning bells in his head.

    Haha I laughed at the Descried comment, I really should delete the bookmark of the thesaurus link I guess :(

    “The lurid star and moonlight beaming through the window wall” I found this odd since I googled the exact combination of “lurid moonight” and it came with results. Not that I question your opinion, but just saying. Probably these phrases were written by morons or not native speakers, or both.

    “Yes, in a profound way.” I meant it as though he was expecting his arrival in very deep emotionial way. Not the ordinary expecting of someone. This may not make any sense but it’s intented that way since it’s part of the plotline.

    First, a blade can’t be “lean”. Yes, “lean” is a synonym for “thin”, but that refers to people. You’re basically saying that the blade doesn’t have any body fat.
    Can’t lean be a poetic way of saying its thin if it refers to objects? I guess not eh? :P

    As before, there aren’t any grammatical errors here, but it just doesn’t sound natural. People don’t yell “to compensate for” noise; they yell “over” it. Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. That’s English for you.
    I’m sorry but I don’t quite get how one can’t yell to compensate for noise. Is compensating for noise in the english language always: “yelling over something”? Or is it physically not possible to compensate your vocal volume to a noisy area?

    Sorry if I went overboard on this. I just figured that it would be best to address everything right here.
    No apologies needed. Again, it was very helpful and I was hoping you could answer the same questions I asked WulfRitter at the end.

  3.  

    @Sakampa

    Some really helpful stuff right there. I think you’re spot on, on alot of matters and alot of it needs no comment on my part but I want to zoom in on these things:

    Thanks. I was afraid that I’d gone too far; I’m glad to know that I didn’t.

    “Supressing sanity” was meant as supressing rationality but thought the alliteration was smooth for some reason. So he was not trying to become insane, but intendedly ignoring the warning bells in his head.

    Ah. The problem here is that both “sanity” and “rationality” are too general for what you’re getting at. Suppressing rationality would be, essentially, willful incoherence. “Suppressing his fear”, “ignoring the impulse to leave”, “against his better judgement”, and the like get the point across without confusing the issue.

    Can’t lean be a poetic way of saying its thin if it refers to objects? I guess not eh? :P

    Well, kinda. You could say that a sports car has a “lean” appearance. But that would be an aesthetic judgement, not a description of its actual dimensions.

    I’m sorry but I don’t quite get how one can’t yell to compensate for noise. Is compensating for noise in the english language always: “yelling over something”?

    Yeah; that’s pretty much how it goes. Like I said, you could say it that way and there’d be nothing wrong with it, but the idiom that people actually use is “over”. Again, it’s an issue with the language, and one of – sadly – many.

    •  
      CommentAuthorWulfRitter
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2011
     

    @Sakampa – When reading your excerpt, I can see the situation and the characters and I get the sense that something is driving Gary (I don’t know what, but that’s obviously because it’s something that you have chosen to keep us in suspense about and that’s good). As for the language being stilted, that comes with practice and with people who are familiar with the language helping you understand the subtleties. And I certainly don’t think you suffer from Paolini Syndrome because you have a very valid reason to have stilted writing – Paolini does not get to say, “Hey, I’m writing this in a language that isn’t my native tongue.”

    I mean, don’t some writers keep the readers in the dark on purpose, or want to convey their personality in other ways than the narration of his thoughts?

    You make a good point. I suppose that what I meant is that this is an important scene and I am not sure how Gary is handling it. His thoughts do not have to be lengthy soliloquies, in fact they shouldn’t be, but you can balance some of the dialogue with some of Gary’s thoughts. Or perhaps some description of Gary’s actions that would demonstrate his reaction to the events of the story. Otherwise, you are telling the reader what Gary feels and not showing what he feels. Here’s a possible example:

    “I don’t know you, so why would I even answer that?” Gary asked irritated.

    This could be written to show a little more of Gary’s character (keep in mind, this is just a quick example since Gary is your character and you know his personality and how you want him to be): Gary scowled, keeping his eyes fixed on the strange man as he answered, “I don’t know you, so why would I even answer that?” I suppose I just want to see that Gary is irritated, not merely be told he is.

    If you can point out a sentence that Stellar Jetman hasn’t yet commented on, you’re welcome to do so!

    It looks like Stellar did a pretty thorough job and probably gave better explanations than I could.

    Is it compelling in its restricted way?

    I definitely think so. Granted, it is a short excerpt from a much longer work, but as I said, I do want to see what happens and I am curious about what this world is like. I mean, hey, you have a guy running around with a sword in a world that is obviously not medieval. Bonus points! :) And I am intrigued about what he means by the bodies being still alive.

    Do you think my prose so far has potential (if edited accordingly) or would I be wasting my time if I’d ever want to get this published?

    If edited, I think there is potential. But I am curious why you want to publish in English and not your native language. Please don’t think I’m being rude, I really am curious. Is it because you like the English language, or are there not a lot of publishers for non-English sci-fi/fantasy?

    Keep in mind, these are just my suggestions. And I hope that I am not coming across as a jerk – some times it’s hard on the internet to not sound like a jerk – because you are doing two daunting things: writing a novel in a language you are still mastering and posting that novel online for critiquing. Never underestimate the courage it takes to ask for critiques on your work.

    • CommentAuthorNo One
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2011
     

    Never underestimate the courage it takes to ask for critiques on your work.

    Agreed. Also, if you want to have an improved understanding of the English language, try reading books written in English.

    • CommentAuthorSakampa
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2011
     

    @WulfRitter
    Thank you for clearing those things up, that were some really constructive and invaluable comments!
    And you do NOT come across as a jerk, at all. Thoughtful and nice are words that better apply.
    The reason I’m writing in English is because of two things. For one, I like writing in English better than in my native language, because I believe the English vocab is immense and therefore more precise, and it simply sounds better in my opinion.
    The second reason is indeed publishing. In my country there are hardly any authors who write the Sci-Fi/Fantasy genre. And most succesful books here, never cross the international boundry. And if they do, their popularity is very limited compared to succesful originally English written books.
    Thanks again, for the compliment. I really appreciate it.

    @No One
    Yes I’m reading some Timothy Zahn at the moment and was planning to read “The Name of the Wind”, or are those books you wouldn’t recommend in terms of quality?

    • CommentAuthorNo One
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2011
     

    Never heard of them. =)

    I haven’t been in the world for that long.

  4.  
    Lol, his name is Gary.

    I have a hard time telling what kind of world this is supposed to be. Many parts imply futuristic technology, yet there's also the presense of swords and, from the way the old man is described, a seemingly archaic choice of attire. I suppose the setting will become more clear with more chapters.
    • CommentAuthorSakampa
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2011 edited
     

    deleted comment