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    • CommentAuthorDeborah
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2011
     

    So I have a question about this character. Is it possible to make a thief/ outlaw character who has a sense of humor in bad situations without turning him into Wisecracking Fantasy Thief #10034? (that sounds like the title of a bad joke book) I’ve had people tell me this character is stereotypical, but I have trouble changing characters personalities a lot. Any tips?

  1.  

    It’s hard to tell without reading your work…I think it’s important to remember that people have many different personality traits. If this is his only personality trait, then I could see how he would be stereotypical. But if he’s also secretly insecure (bad example, but it’s the first one that came to my head), then he’s immediately more interesting than Wisecracking Fantasy Theif #10033.

    This probably wasn’t very helpful, was it? Sorry about that…but maybe if you gave us a sample of what he’s like from your writing?

    •  
      CommentAuthorSharkonian
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2011
     
    I'm not sure, but wouldn't he be Wisecracking Fantasy Thief #9001 only if that's his only purpose in the book? If he's just always, "oh no, we're about to be eaten by trolls [insert terrible pun here]"; then I would consider him that way, but if he isn't always like that or we learn why he's like that, then I wouldn't consider him as such.
    • CommentAuthorDanielle
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2011
     

    ^^ Agreed.

    One thing I’ve learned from watching people is that they are an incredible mix of conflicting and harmonious personality traits. If all your thief does is crack jokes and steal things, then yeah, he’d probably be stereotypical. But all you need to do is look at him—his background, his hopes and dreams, his likes and dislikes—to find something atypical. People are shaped by their backgrounds. What in his past made him decide to be a thief?
    How does he feel about his chosen occupation?
    Does he secretly want to be a chef instead?
    What would he do if a legitimate, high-paying job offer came his way?
    Does he use his sense of humor as a coping mechanism, or is it a cry for attention?
    While we’re on the topic of humor, what kind of humor is it? Bad puns? Snide remarks? Morbidity that makes you laugh behind your hand?
    Are his jokes actually funny?
    What about his soft side?
    What religion does he lean toward/ practice, if any?

    Now, you don’t need to answer all of these questions; I might have gotten a bit carried away. But they’ll help you learn more about your thief and hopefully make him less stereotypical.

  2.  

    Second everything that’s been said so far. Surely you can provide more detail than you did in the OP, right? If you can’t, that could go a long way toward explaining why you are getting these kinds of reactions.

    I’d also like to add that you should exercise caution if you decide to keep the character’s wisecracks. It’s really, really easy for that kind of character to become obnoxious and grating if the jokes don’t land but the narrative continues to treat him as being so funny and witty and such.

    Oh, and whatever you do, don’t use the word ‘sardonic’ to describe him at any point. Or anybody else. Just never use that word in general.

    • CommentAuthorDeborah
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2011
     

    He’s a major character, love interest of the protagonist, and leader of a band of outlaws. They are forced into stealing to survive, and he isn’t always happy about it, but there isn’t really another option.I don’t plan to treat all of his jokes as being funny, since I’m not good enough at humor for that. Its kind of a way of coping with the situation, (and to hide his true feelings on the matter at hand, which is something he hardly talks about) Some of his jokes are funny, but a lot of them are kind of lame, and other characters roll their eyes.

  3.  

    When it comes to the word ‘sardonic’, don’t listen to sansafro.

    Deborah, if there’s one thing that TVtropes has taught me, its that everybody is some sort of typical type at some point, in some way. I mean, they have White Hair is Good and White Hair is Bad. You can’t win. You just need to write what’s in your head; you can’t let what other people think, and what you think other people think, dictate who that character actually is.

    At the same time, don’t write them one-dimensionally, like Danielle says. Use your Wisecracking Fantasy Thief type as a basis for a character. But really, don’t try to make them break a mould for the sole purpose of being different from everybody else because in doing so, you’ll wreck the character and find yourself writing them into ANOTHER mould. Then you’ll try to break that one and then you’ll go mad.

    Also, keep in mind that Tropes Are Not Bad. Fundamentally, it’s a trope because it works. Everybody likes a degree of familiarity. Everybody expects a degree of familiarity. Readers, unless they’re extremely cynical (and so who cares what they think then? People in that frame of mind are just looking for things to mock. You can’t take them totally seriously) won’t be reading your character and thinking, “Oh, I’ve seen this done so many times before and therefore this whole work automatically sucks.” Heroes of books often have similar qualities to heroes in other books. But that doesn’t make them bad. It doesn’t make them unoriginal.

    So Tyrion Lannister is a wisecracking dwarf. So’s Mulch Diggums. The similarities are only superficial; underneath they’re completely different.

    The thing about well-rounded wisecrackers, too (and it sounds like that’s what yours is), is that they often have very distinctive personalities, which are—well, quite distinctive. If you ask me, you’ve got nothing to worry about.

    •  
      CommentAuthorsansafro187
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2011 edited
     

    When it comes to the word ‘sardonic’, don’t listen to sansafro.

    No, listen to sansafro. For starters, it’s an immediate cue that the author wants you to know how edgy and irreverent and cutting and what have you the character is, but nine times out of ten I’d say the character just ends up acting smug. It’s just a word that shows up when the author really wants you to know the character is so cool. It’s the ultimate ‘trying too hard’ tag.

    The second thing, and the less pet peevish reason, is that it’s a really lazy adjective most of the time. Rather than showing a character behaving sardonically and trusting the reader to pick up on it, instead they have this word attached to them(or some other hideous construction like doing something with ‘sardonic glee,’ barf) and it tries to remove any of the guesswork.

    Granted, I don’t think there should ever be any objective description of character personalities for any reason.

    He’s a major character, love interest of the protagonist, and leader of a band of outlaws. They are forced into stealing to survive, and he isn’t always happy about it, but there isn’t really another option.I don’t plan to treat all of his jokes as being funny, since I’m not good enough at humor for that. Its kind of a way of coping with the situation, (and to hide his true feelings on the matter at hand, which is something he hardly talks about) Some of his jokes are funny, but a lot of them are kind of lame, and other characters roll their eyes.

    What else can you say about him? You need more than this if he’s a major character.

  4.  

    Okay, sansa, you win. You have some very good points there. I just happen to like the word sardonic. It’s like I love the note Bb. I really don’t know why. Perhaps it needs to go in a planning section under ‘character bio’ rather than in the actual story. Happy?

    •  
      CommentAuthorThea
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2011
     

    Referring to ‘sardonic’ (because all the advice for the thief I agree with) but I think you might get away with it maybe once or twice in a novel. And like Steph, I mostly just like the word. :)

  5.  

    I think Raistlin smirked “sardonically” a couple of times…

    But yeah, if an author uses any cool word too much, it makes them look very lazy and trying-too-hard.

    • CommentAuthorDanielle
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2011
     

    Okay, here’s my two cents on the “sardonic” debate:

    It’s a bit like the word “chagrin.” Use it in moderation, and only if you’re sure you know what it means. I remember one series where a character named Marcus “gave a sardonic smile” a few times, and it was quite clear he was being sarcastic, cynical and a little smug. That’s what the author wanted the reader to think, and that’s what her use of the word “sardonic” did.

    The best way I’ve heard it defined: “Sarcasm with an edge.” Keep that in mind if you ever want to use it.

  6.  

    I think GRRM described Tyrion as sardonic once…and I thought of sansafro.

    • CommentAuthorDeborah
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2011
     

    He also doesn’t really think before he speaks. He’ll say something because its a great comeback, without really thinking about the consequences. This turns out to be a disaster when he winds up accidentally revealing information that nearly gets his brother killed.

  7.  

    @ Danielle: I can’t read the word ‘chagrin’ without snickering now, even when it’s used correctly.

    It even pops up in Jane Austen novels, and I can’t help but feel a bit defiled.

    • CommentAuthorDanielle
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2011
     

    @ Steph, the only book I can remember reading where “chagrin” didn’t make me giggle or roll my eyes was before Twilight was published. It was used correctly and didn’t bother me at all. But, like I said, that was before SMeyer published her 8,000 pages of fancy toilet paper and ruined the word forever.

  8.  

    ^In the same wat that she ruined human/vampire/werewolf love triangles forever.

    You know I’m right.;-)

  9.  

    ^^ Look, I think at the very most basic level, she got that triangle mostly right. She had two enemies, she outlined the differences clearly, she created an atmosphere of passion and all that goo very successfully, if at the same time very badly. Where she went wrong was that Edward was just too perfect for his flaws to come through, whilst Jacob’s flaws were coming through loud and clear.

  10.  

    In a way I agree about the “basic level” you’re talking about, but still.

    she created an atmosphere of passion and all that goo very successfully, if at the same time very badly.

    She got the passion, all right. Where she failed was fitting the triangle into the perspective of a big fat fight between the two species; it’s almost like Pearl Harbor, where they focused too much on the mushiness and far too little on the war that was going on at the same time.

    Where she went wrong was that Edward was just too perfect for his flaws to come through, whilst Jacob’s flaws were coming through loud and clear.

    I think I get what you mean there. Are you saying kinda the same thing that Cleolinda said? Can’t remember her exact words, but she said that Bella fixated on Edward so much that the “balance” of the triangle was gone. In other words, you never wonder which guy she’s going to pick, you know it will be Edward.

    • CommentAuthorDeborah
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2011
     

    Uhhh, this is kind of off topic. . .

  11.  

    Ssorry.

    Did we answer your question?

    • CommentAuthorDeborah
    • CommentTimeFeb 13th 2011
     

    Yes. Thank you.