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    •  
      CommentAuthorKloof
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2010
     

    Nancy Yi Fan. You’ve probably all heard of her. She was just thirteen when she wrote and published Swordbird, a book about Cardinals and Bluejays fighting against an evil hawk and his crow and raven minions. The sequil to this book, Sword Quest was published soon after. You can read an excerpt from Swordbird here.
    I often wonder whether to judge Nancy as harshly as we judge another young writer, Gloria Tesch, our most favorite author ever!
    The difference between these two authors: Arrogance. Besides the fact that Glotia’s understanding of the english language is about as extensive as a two-year old’s, the big thing that seems to set Fan and Tesch apart is arrogance. When I read about Nancy (interviews, articles, etc.) I see a girl who made a fair attempt to send out a message about peace. Failed attempt, if you asked me, but fair enough. When I read about dear little Gloria, the “youngest published author in the world” (*cough* Lie. Nancy beat you by a few years, honey) I see a conceited, egotistic…. blah.
    Now, I’ve never read all of Swordbird. Just little, relatively nonsensical tidbits, sprinkled with irrelevant characters and dialogue. So maybe I don’t have room to judge. But what do you think? I’ve never felt like it was necessary to cut Tesch a break because of her age, so is it fair to give Fan a break? After all, when you enter the writing world, you’re getting yourself into a battlefield that you can’t get out of.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKloof
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2010
     

    (Sorry if I posted this in the wrong section. I meant to change the discussion category, but accidentally published it before I could.)

    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2010
     

    See, I feel like I can’t judge her just yet. The problem with PaoPao and Gloatia namely is that even though they started out young, they don’t show any improvement over time. PaoPao still writes like when he was 15 and same with Gloatia. If Nancy Yi Fan improves over time then yes, I think she deserves a break.

  1.  

    I don’t really believe in cutting Fan, or anyone, a break. IMO at least, saying things like “it’s good for a kid her age” and other such softballs are about as condescending as it gets. If you respect somebody, you don’t pull your punches.

    That said, I haven’t read anything related to Swordbird, so I have no idea how good or bad it is.

  2.  

    I’m with sansafro187. She shouldn’t have been published in the first place; she should have waited until she had written something worth publishing. Publishing a book without any knowledge of writing well is its own problem, not an excuse for the problems intrinsic to the book itself.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKloof
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2010
     

    That’s similar to what I’m thinking.
    When I was 13, I wrote a 400-page manuscript that I was sure I was going to get published before I started high school. this never happened, since I never finished typing it, and I’m glad it didn’t. Sure, it’s well-written for a preteen, but it would never survive in the real world. Thank the lord for my procrastination.

  3.  

    I’m with sansa and dan with an important “But”.

    The but is: “What was the original goal.”

    Of Nancy was just writing for fun and had no real pretensions about her work, then I would judge it as just a fun “popcorn” work of fiction. if it was aimed to be “the next great thing” (as PaoPao and Tesch seem to think) then judge it as harshly as you would using other TRUE greats as standards (LotR, HP, Narnia, etc etc).

    Take the webcomic axe cop (not linking, go find it yourself). It’s a comic written by an actual 5 year old, drawn by his older brother. Is it a great webcomic or work of literature? Hell no. Is it great for a 5 year old? eh… about average. How does it rank going by its own goal? Since I think it’s just done for entertainment, I guess it succeeds. Though I’d love to see what the writer does about this work when he gets to be a teenager…

    Yes, that is part of the reason why I judge Avatar harsher than Transformers 2.

  4.  

    Of Nancy was just writing for fun and had no real pretensions about her work, then I would judge it as just a fun “popcorn” work of fiction. if it was aimed to be “the next great thing” (as PaoPao and Tesch seem to think) then judge it as harshly as you would using other TRUE greats as standards (LotR, HP, Narnia, etc etc).

    Bad writing is bad writing. Calling it “popcorn” is no excuse, and denigrates well-written “popcorn”. Fan may not have been shooting for the moon, but she still shot.

    •  
      CommentAuthorsansafro187
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2010 edited
     

    Yeah, that’s a fair point I guess. Insert whatever that quote is about mediocre philosophers and master plumbers and such. I just don’t buy the idea that one should use kid-gloves on other people, even if they are kids.

    I’d like to reiterate that I have not read it, and have no specific opinion on the work in particular.

  5.  

    I think it depends on whether Fan was writing for the sake of writing and improving her craft, writing to be famous for being so young, or writing with messages, etc, in mind.

    If the first one, don’t totally excuse her, but don’t let’s actively go out of our way to snark her, because we all make stupid mistakes, (eg publishing a book that shouldn’t have been published) and like Puppet says, she may improve over time. Plus she doesn’t appear to be arrogant, like Kloof says.
    If the second, shoot her at dawn. Well, not that extreme, but feel free to get her. But I again refer to
    If the third, cut her a break. She’s doing what she thinks will help her cause,and it’s a pretty worthy one, too. Not everybody writes because the final product is a book. For some people the final product is entertainment, for some it’s the story, for some it’s the satisfaction of having done something. It’s only when the final product is an ego-feed and a now-i-don’t-have-to-listen-to-anybody-or-find-a-way-to-improve effect that it becomes Fail-worthy.

    I kind of agree with Dan Locke and sansafro on ‘bad writing is bad writing’ and ‘condescension’, but not everybody buys it for the writing. Don’t quote me on this, but I think that what happens anyway is that when it comes down to it, people, no matter how condescending they want to be, will only buy that book to support Fan’s message, or because they actually enjoy the story. (and it is possible. Look at the very books we deconstruct as a site.)

    I’m not actually saying that she writes badly as I haven’t read her work and, “have no specific opinion on the work in particular”. These are just my views in general.

    @ sansa: I would have thought kid-gloves were appropriate for handling kids.

  6.  

    Bad writing is bad writing. Calling it “popcorn” is no excuse, and denigrates well-written “popcorn”. Fan may not have been shooting for the moon, but she still shot.

    Except, as I pointed out, the grading for “popcorn” vs serious works is different. You’re right, if it’s bad – it’s still bad. But as you also pointed out, she still shot and my point was that first you need to see what target she was aiming at to determine how close she got to the bullseye.

  7.  

    Apart from the hidden text, I agree with Nate.

    •  
      CommentAuthorMoldorm
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2010
     

    I know basically nothing about her book, but she seems enthusiastic and willing to improve. From what I’ve read about her second book, she has developed as a writer since the first. I’m optimistic about her.

  8.  

    If she’s actually trying to develop and improve as a writer, then that means we don’t even have to criticize. In less than a year she’ll probably look back on her first work and criticize even harsher than anyone else ever could.

  9.  

    Well then. Happiness all around, and which patron saint of II gets to give her a smile?

  10.  

    SlyShy?

  11.  

    cough Lie. Nancy beat you by a few years, honey

    She sweeps that under the rug on her website saying that a novel has to be a certain number of pages (she said like 400 or something), and that Swordbird was not long enough to be a novel, so it doesn’t count. I tried to fine the exact quote, but I couldn’t.

    Yes, that is part of the reason why I judge Avatar harsher than Transformers 2.

    When you put it that way… I get what you’re saying. If it’s not meant to be OMG awesome! then it makes the fact that it’s bad not quite as… bad. If she was aiming for being a totally awesome prodigy and thinks she is one, then the fail-ness is far more irritating. I do agree that bad writing is bad writing. So, I don’t know. Maybe I’ll read the excerpt to have a more informed opinion.

  12.  

    When you put it that way… I get what you’re saying. If it’s not meant to be OMG awesome! then it makes the fact that it’s bad not quite as… bad. If she was aiming for being a totally awesome prodigy and thinks she is one, then the fail-ness is far more irritating. I do agree that bad writing is bad writing.

    Of course, bad is bad, the point is that there are degrees of badness. So, to use movies as an example:
    I would judge dramas on a different scale from comedies. A film which works abysmally as a drama (an F-) might be acceptable or somewhat tolerable as a comedy (D or C grade). This is why I usual grade works based on what I can determine the author’s goal was. Which also means that there can be even WORSE things than bad. Thus, often bad, really REALLY bad comedies are even worse than the worst dramas.

    This is also part of the reason I’m actually less angry about Twilight than Eragon. As far as I can tell, Meyer didn’t have any lofty goal or great aim so even though it’s bad, it’s not quite as horrible as Paolini’s abominations. Meyer got closer to her target than Paolini did, even though both missed.

  13.  

    Which also means that there can be even WORSE things than bad. Thus, often bad, really REALLY bad comedies are even worse than the worst dramas.

    I know exactly what you mean. The first has Narm value, but you can’t even laugh at the second.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010 edited
     

    She sweeps that under the rug on her website saying that a novel has to be a certain number of pages (she said like 400 or something), and that Swordbird was not long enough to be a novel, so it doesn’t count. I tried to fine the exact quote, but I couldn’t.

    Ah yes, I don’t have the exact quote either. But I remember she said it was a “short story”. Riiiiiight, because 400 pages = short story.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKloof
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     

    :/ That’s just Glotia being… Glotia. Word count is actually what really matters in the writing world, isn’t it? But even if page count judged whether a book was a novel or not, there are only like 600 words on each page of Maradonia because of the crazy formatting, so it’s probably equivalent to about 300 actual pages in a normal publishing scheme.

    •  
      CommentAuthorJeni
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     

    That’s just Glotia being… Glotia

    Without getting involved in the discussion, no more of this please. No matter what her behaviour, calling her names is petty, bullying and demeans only us.

    Thank you.

    •  
      CommentAuthorsquidget
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010 edited
     

    I agree with Jeni.

    She sweeps that under the rug on her website saying that a novel has to be a certain number of pages (she said like 400 or something), and that Swordbird was not long enough to be a novel, so it doesn’t count. I tried to fine the exact quote, but I couldn’t.

    I found that quote. Here it is:

    “A novel consists of at least 400 pages and up in length. Bearing this standard in mind, Gloria Tesch is widely known as The World’s Youngest Novelist, this is factually correct. Although Nancy Li Fan’s novel Swordbird was published by HarperCollins in 2007 when she was 13 years old, Swordbird contains in her book only about 150 pages or so, excluding her blank pages with a simple line and pictures overtaking a whole page with a couple of sentences.
    Yes, she was younger than Gloria Tesch when she completed her short story, but she did not defeat the battle of the pages to officially make a novel. Because of this she cannot claim the title: the youngest novelist, based on her 200 page story compared to the 800+ page novelist: Gloria Tesch. “

    I’m not buying it. And whatever happened to that other “young author”-Flavia Bujor?

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     

    Kloof: hahaha no. The ‘standard’ page is judged at being around 250 words. Tesch is lucky to have 100 words on each page. 600 words per page would make either really massive pages or a nigh-unreadably-small font face.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKloof
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     

    You’re right, jeni. Sorry about that.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     

    Right, like Jeni said, it’s degrading. Sorry. But yes, I find Gloria much, much more annoying then Paolini and Meyer. And she is NOT the world’s youngest published novelist, as it says in LARGE BOLD TEXT ON HER WEBSITE. And I quote:

    Daisy Ashford, full name Margaret Mary Julia Ashford (later Devlin) (7 April 1881 – 15 January 1972) was an English writer who is most famous for writing The Young Visiters, a novella concerning the upper class society of late 19th century England, when she was just nine years old. The novella was published in 1919, preserving her juvenile spelling and punctuation. She wrote the title as “Viseters” in her manuscript, but it was published as “Visiters”.[1]

  14.  

    ^^I read about that when I was trying to check and see if Gloria really was the youngest.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     

    I think Gloria has yet to learn the lesson that quantity does not necessarily equal quality. It doesn’t matter how many pages you wrote, it’s more about word count really, but it doesn’t matter how much you wrote, when you wrote it if it’s terrible. It’s great that she wrote when she was young, but that doesn’t excuse her. If you’re going to get published you should be prepared to take the criticism that comes along with it.

  15.  

    I agree. Writing when you’re young is really good because it can stir up the whole passion thing, and practicing will make you better for when do write something worth publishing, but you can’t publish every word-vomit you spew out. Parents also shouldn’t tell their children that what they did is wonderful and help them to publish it when it isn’t. It’s okay to say something is good when it is good for their age if you’re a parent, but you shouldn’t help them to publish something that sucks regardless of how good it is for their age. And I think at around age ten, parents should start being more honest with their children about the quality of their work, while still being encouraging. Constructive criticism is always good. Over-the-top praise is not.

    •  
      CommentAuthorJeni
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2010 edited
     

    You’re right, jeni. Sorry about that.

    That’s ok! :D I hope you didn’t think I was picking on you, or being mean. PLEASE STAY. :3

    Because your username makes me think of Commander Keen, and that makes me smile inside.

    •  
      CommentAuthorLeliel
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2010
     

    at least 400 pages and up

    Yes, thank you Redundant Department of Redundancy.

    Wikipedia thinks novels start around 40-50k words, I’m more inclined to believe that figure than some arbitrary number from someone with artificially high page counts :P

    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2010
     

    Well then I know from doing NaNoWriMo for several years that 50K is about 100 pages, for me at least. And if Swordbird is 400 pages, I’m estimating around 200K.

  16.  

    And if Swordbird is 400 pages, I’m estimating around 200K.

    Swordbird has about 200 pages.

    •  
      CommentAuthorVirgil
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2010
     

    I concur.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2010
     

    Ah, my bad. But still, if Gloria thinks that Swordbird is a short story that just proves that she knows absolutely nothing about writing.

  17.  

    Rule of thumb in the industry is ~250 per page, as Taku said. This is an average that includes white space and such, though.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKloof
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2010
     

    That’s ok! :D I hope you didn’t think I was picking on you, or being mean. PLEASE STAY. :3 Because your username makes me think of Commander Keen, and that makes me smile inside.

    No, I didn’t think that at all ^^ You brought me back to my senses. Gloria Tesch pushes my buttons (big time), and I get a bit out of character, doing things like that.

    Constructive criticism is always good. Over-the-top praise is not.

    Agreed. i’m starting to think Nancy Yi Fan deserves a bit of a break, at least until we see more from her (which I hope we do). I have a feeling she’s going to get better.

  18.  

    Rule of thumb in the industry is ~250 per page, as Taku said. This is an average that includes white space and such, though.

    That’s the estimate; it’s often higher.

  19.  

    No, she doesn’t. I would treat her like I treat all published authors: harshly.

    HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean I think she’s a horrible writer, only that she needs time to get better, and maybe a few writing lessons (I wanted to take a red pen to Swordbird, if only to show her what she did wrong and how she can improve).

    I wish someone could invite her here. I think it’d be useful for her…

  20.  

    ~250 words per page? I suddenly feel so much better about my in-progress writing project thingy- I have almost 20 pages by that standard!

    Dances

  21.  
    Hey, twenty pages is twenty pages! I wish I had written that much over vacation--that had been the plan before I realized how much studying I had to do...
    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2010
     

    ~250 words per page? I suddenly feel so much better about my in-progress writing project thingy- I have almost 20 pages by that standard!

    If I go by that my NaNoWriMo should have about 200 pages rather then 100.

  22.  

    It’s 250 words per page is if you use Courier, i believe. It’s different for Times, as that font is smaller.

  23.  

    ANYWAY.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2010 edited
     

    At any rate, that’s how some professional editors (like myself) determine their quoted rates. Divide the wordcount by 250 (to get the page count), divide that by one’s average pages-per-hour working speed, and then multiply by a standard hourly rate.

    Moving right along.

    I don’t think Fan deserves a break, because her work wasn’t good enough to be published. I judge all work by its peers, and in this case Fan has chosen to enter the professional published world and compete with professional works that have been published in the same industry.

    If she shows later improvement in her work, that’s all fine and well, but her first book should not have been published when it was. Giving her “a break” if or because her later works show improvement is tantamount to saying “she was just a kid, back then”. If she was “just a kid back then”, why was she published?

  24.  

    professional editors (like myself)

    You’re a professional editor?

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2010
     

  25.  

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2010 edited
     

    Ahem.

    •  
      CommentAuthorArtimaeus
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2010
     

    As I understand it, Swordbird reads like mediocre/decent Redwall fanfiction with birds. Nothing spectacular. But I think in this case we should be careful to criticize the writing, not the author. Unlike Tetch, Meyer, and Paolini, she was not setting herself up as a magical wonderchild or the next Jane Ausitn. Also, the writing may not deserve high praise, but I think a little respect is due to the author for accomplishing something so young and not letting it go to her head.

  26.  

    My gosh, Artimaeus, Jane Austen is spelt A-U-S-T-E-N!!!

    •  
      CommentAuthorArtimaeus
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2010
     

    Oops, my bad.

  27.  

    calms down

    You just want to be careful, okay, buddy? Their are tons of people out they’re who would hunt you down with an axe for that mistake.

  28.  

    Hey, I know this is a really old thread guys, but I’d like to defend Nancy on this one (at least, a little bit).

    Nancy Yi Fan never intended to publish her book—she wrote it for fun and to “convey a message of peace,” and just sent out her manuscript to some editors because she wanted advice on how she could improve (unlike Tesch, who thinks she’s the greatest writer in the world and can’t take criticism >__<). One of her e-mails happened to be to Jane Friedman—I think that’s her last name—who’s the CEO of HarperCollins. They offered her a publishing deal, and she accepted. Now, I know you might criticize her for accepting because she was a kid and just didn’t write well and should have waited until she got better, but it was a publishing contract. Who wouldn’t accept?

    Also, from what I’ve heard, she improves tremendously in Sword Quest (second book), and her meanings and storylines get more complex and she actually incorporates a lot of Chinese culture in it.

    Annnnddd, one more thing: English is her second language, actually. She was born and lived in Beijing, China until she moved to the U.S. at the age of seven. She became a straight-A student in a year and studied English so much she could actually publish a book just a few years after she moved to the U.S. She still speaks, reads, and writes Chinese (not sure which dialect) fluently and translated her novel into Chinese herself.

    Okay, so I know that won’t excuse her for anything, but I’d just like to include that to the “cool” factor in Nancy. I have a great respect for her.

  29.  

    Well, then, it’s not her fault she was published, it’s the editors who published her. Was it a good book for a kid her age? Sure. Was it good enough to be published? No. She can’t be blamed for writing a mediocre book, she’s young. She can’t be blamed for taking the contract, after all, who wouldn’t? Especially someone that young.

    But, if her work is out in the public, then I hold it to the same standard as other published kid’s novels, since it gathered such high praise. That doesn’t mean I attack her personally, she seems like a sweet girl, and it’s impressive that she translated her book, but if all she gets is praise, how’s she going to get any better? I’m not saying we rip her appart viciously (that’s not what we’re really about, anyway), but, despite her accomplishments, she’s still a published author, and therefore does not deserve any ‘breaks’.

    That said, I have heard she improves with Sword Quest, though I haven’t read it. And if she continues improving, she’ll look back on her first attempt and probably wince.

    I’d be interested in reading anything new she’d come up with (that isn’t a re-tread of Redwall). I think that once she comes into her own, she’ll be a pretty good author.

  30.  

    I actually want to read her now. It’d be interesting to see how she gets better.

  31.  

    faints

    Oh dear. Someone actually replied to me (and Steph, too of all people!). I think I’m going to—

    But wait, I already did.

    Anyway, Inspector, I agree completely about the standards thing. I wasn’t trying to say that you guys were criticizing her too much; I was trying to add in how cool Nancy really is.

    And I forgot! I have Sword Quest on my Kindle (how could I forget that?) so now I have to start reading.

    And (I use that to start a lot of paragraphs and sentences—please don’t kill me) Steph, I wholly recommend reading Swordbird and Sword Quest :D

  32.  
    You a friend of Miss Fan by any chance? (Just curious)
  33.  

    Does this mean I’m like one of the plastics now?

  34.  

    You a friend of Miss Fan by any chance? (Just curious)

    maybe she’s Miss Fan herself!

  35.  
    bq. Does this mean I’m like one of the plastics now?

    Eh?

    bq. maybe she’s Miss Fan herself!

    *Shrug* It's possible.
  36.  

    Eh?

    You know, popular with the power of awesomeness by association.

  37.  

    This is easily one of the most bizarre directions I’ve seen a thread take here.

  38.  

    You haven’t been reading the ‘in memory’ thread, have you?

  39.  

    I have, I just found it to be boilerplate ‘wackiness’ for the most part. This, though… this is truly strange.

  40.  

    Well, you know, I do take every opportunity to enhance my ego.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKyllorac
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2011
     

    You mean your ego still needs enhancements?

  41.  
    bq. You mean your ego still needs enhancements?

    Reminds of one of those comments the Jack FM guy makes.
  42.  

    You mean your ego still needs enhancements?

    Hey, there is always room to improve. As impossible as it sounds, even for me.

  43.  

    I don’t know Nancy, actually, and I’m not her.

    But I read Sword Quest just today and I’m actually loving it so far.

  44.  

    Cool. You up for a recap or something?

    •  
      CommentAuthorBlueMask
    • CommentTimeNov 13th 2011
     
    I was given Swordbird as a present for my 10th birthday, from a friend who said "Because she's a child author, and you are going to be one too!" I was the token writer among my friends. I read it, and quite liked it. I cried when a certain character dies, and reading it now I think Fan actually shows some promise with the descriptions. There were cliches, but the menace and cruelty shown by the evil character was kind of convincing. I still have the copy, but now my intention of becoming a young author faded in the passing of time, and I think you lot helped, as well.
    That's my twenty cents, anyway.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKyllorac
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2011
     

    No need to let us destroy your aspirations. Aspirations are good, even though they may be ambitious.

    Just so long as you realize that youth is NOT a “Get Out of Writing Quality Free” card.

    •  
      CommentAuthorBlueMask
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2011
     
    I'd much rather get more writing experience before trying to publish anything- like actually writing instead on going on the interwebs. Oh well.
    • CommentAuthorMnemone
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2011 edited
     
    Someone accused the young lady writer of being a "Redwall retread", which is an unfair characterisation and judgement because Redwall books themselves are retreads of previous books. Not that I don't love those books to pieces -- the descriptions of food are peerless and they make great audiobooks -- just that there's something wrong about condemning her for using a model that served Mr Jacques very well for decades.
    • CommentAuthorDeborah
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2011
     

    I just got Swordbird out of the library. It’s not that bad, actually. I kind of like it so far. It does remind me of Redwall, but in a good way. I think it was worthy of being published, and it’s certainly better than anything Paolini has done. She isn’t in love with her thesaurus, and doesn’t get into paragraphs and paragraphs of description.