Yes, first of all, this is a religion-specific topic. I’m sorry about that, but this does happen to be about writing as well, and I’d really appreciate conversing with other Christians and see how they’re handling this topic. If you’re not a Christian, please feel free to post anyway.

But guys, I’m sure it doesn’t need repeating, but please respect others’ beliefs here. You don’t have to agree with them, but just be polite, okay?This is a safe place… :P

It also happens to be a safe place with no ‘how the world began’ discussions either. That’s a whole different kettle of fish.*

So now that we’ve cleared that up, I have a few questions. Has anybody got links or ideas on how to write a story so that God doesn’t take over the storyline? Not that I’m saying He’s not important, just… life goes on. God isn’t the only thing in life. We have to interact with real people and deal with real situations. Does a Christian story necessarily have to include a subplot of spiritual growth? What effect does it create for you when you read one-sided prayers in a novel?

I’m also facing an ethical dilemma about swearing. A few of my characters are not Christian, and so they behave like non-Christians (not that Christians are any better, sometimes). This includes the fact that they swear.

Now, the thing is, when reading a book I prefer to not have to read swearing in it, most Christians prefer not to have swearing in it, and swearing is frowned upon by Paul anyway, but I’m trying to do realism here, to show that these are characters who . So does this cross the art/God line?

I’m not asking you to tell me what to do, but what do you guys think?

*By the way, this is aimed more at the newer members who may not be totally familiar with how stuff works around here.

I automatically shy away from Christian fiction because it generally strikes me as pretentious and preachy and, above all, unrealistic. If I was given a choice between two Christian fiction books, one being “clean” and the other not, I would pick the latter to read, because chances are the characters and the story are going to be more realistic. People swear. Even Christians swear. It’s a problem I would rather have addressed than ignored or edited out.

I’m a Christian. I don’t usually say that without qualifying it, though, because I’m not typical. That’s another discussion, however, so suffice it to say that I am in the same boat with my own writing and feel this discussion is very appropriate.

Well, we must first make a distinction between “Christian fiction” and fiction that is written by a Christian.

On the one hand you have the sorts of stories that fill most “Christian” book stores. The pretentious, preachy, annoying, unintelligent fiction that is just a rip off of non-Christian fiction.

Then you have Christians who write fiction, like Dostoyevksy and Tolkien, for example. C S Lewis was a little less obscure with his fiction, though I hardly think he qualifies for the “preachy, pretentious” category. (His Perelandra Space Trilogy was especially original, I thought.)

The difference between the two is the same as any other art form. You have the “Christian” bands who sing, essentially, a “clean” version of what is on “normal” radio. Then you have bands made up by Christians, who make artistic, creative music that may or may not blatantly reference God.

Or take painting. You have the artists who paint lambs with lions, or Jonah in a whale, pictures that go into Sunday school books. That’s fine. But then you have artists who are Christians, like Knippers and Rouault who focus less on the Hallmark moments and more on real life situations.

I guess I’m just saying all this because, personally, I would prefer to be in the second category. When you write, your beliefs sort of end up framing the story in any case- no matter how hard you may try to avoid it. Your beliefs/values/principals will always end up in your story. It’s just a matter of how blatant, preachy and pretentious you are going to be.

Not convinced? Check out a few of these authors:
Stephenie Meyer
Philip Pullman
Christopher Paolini
Mary Shelly
Leo Tolstoy

It’s all a matter of degrees and skill. Some are more creative, artistic, original, imaginative than others.
Ahem

True, true. But then I haven’t read her books (I know, I’m an idiot) and don’t feel qualified to speak about her. I have her series on my list of “to reads.”

See, I would never say “I want to make a Christian story” because then it’s a parable or a Aesop’s fable. It’s a moral lesson, which is okay in some ages but not our present one. We prefer implication.

As far as swearing or having “bad” things happen in a book…just think of Dostoyevsky. One of his main characters was a prostitute and several characters (“bad” and “good”) cursed.

Christians shouldn’t be afraid of “touching” subjects just because they are sensitive or uncomfortable. And the whole “cursing” thing…I could go on a soapbox over how the phrase “take God’s name in vain” has been twisted to mean something it doesn’t….but I’ll refrain…

If you are cursing just because you can’t think of any other way to be descriptive chances are you’re either needing “How to Write 101” or else you’re writing in the fan-fiction genre and can’t be bothered….

I think we have a miscommunication. I wasn’t disagreeing with anything you said.

My point was that a person (no matter their faith) should not feel obligated to omit certain facets of life from their fiction because they don’t meet the standard of that person’s religion/morality. An example would be Sonya of Crime and Punishment. She’s a prostitute and also a compelling character written by a Christian author. Of course, every artist has the liscense to do what they want and avoid any subject they desire.

One of the things I liked about writing fan fiction (looks around nervously) was the constraints it put on me as a writer. I had a pre-established universe and characters to deal with. Unless I wanted to suck (and oh so many fan fiction writers do) I could ignore characters' established personalities or introduce a myriad of my own characters. I enjoyed the intellectual exercise of having constraints put on my writing that I had to work in.

So, if a constraint were to avoid depictions of ... inappropriate behavior (swearing, sex, drinking, whatever) then take on the challenge. One interesting aspect would be to do it in first-person to give the impression the character was purposefully ignoring these things.

As for Christian writing: I would think that "spiritual growth" and a relationship with God is necessarily an aspect of a "Christian" story. Otherwise it's just a story that has a Christian character in it. Lots of movies (say, Independence Day) have Christian characters (and even some Jewish ones in that movie.) Just because you see them pray (when they think they'e about to die) or say "Oh, my God" when staring down the throat of a dinosaur doesn't make it a Christian movie.

I've always wanted to take a shot at Christian writing. My only exposure to Christian entertainment is the Christian movies, and boy-howdy those are awful. Subtle as a hammer to the head and loaded with the simplest characters imaginable. Everyone spouts Bible verses at the drop of a hat and there is one and only one (of course, that IS the way and the light) solution to what's going on. Why does it always have to be so bad?

I’ve always wanted to take a shot at Christian writing. My only exposure to Christian entertainment is the Christian movies, and boy-howdy those are awful. Subtle as a hammer to the head and loaded with the simplest characters imaginable. Everyone spouts Bible verses at the drop of a hat and there is one and only one (of course, that IS the way and the light) solution to what’s going on. Why does it always have to be so bad?

I think some of it might have to do with intellectual wars, tensions, etc.

Just pulling a theory off the top of my head (I have NO data on whether this is true or not), there’s historically (and sometimes still is) been conflict between Christians on the roles of works vs faith.

Thus, when writing a story “endorsing” a side, you get an expected result. If the protagonists “worked” their way out of the problem, that would be promoting works over faith and not putting our trust in God like we should, etc etc.

Some atheists may find it surprising, but I despise anvilicious Christian stories as much as they do. Most of the time, preachy stories are half-wrong anyway, and the rest of the time they’re so focused on preaching at the reader that the book is terrible. And don’t get me started on Christian romances, especially historical ones! I’d rather eat worm-infested mud than read a Christian historical romance.

YES. I agree completely. The word “obnoxious” comes to mind.

I think we have a miscommunication. I wasn’t disagreeing with anything you said.

No harm done. I agree with what you said, that if you think that there’s only one way to express your ideas, you need more experience writing. I was just trying to make my point clearer.

Thus, when writing a story “endorsing” a side, you get an expected result. If the protagonists “worked” their way out of the problem, that would be promoting works over faith and not putting our trust in God like we should, etc etc.

I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. It seems that a lot of Christian™ fiction that I’ve exposed myself to seems to have this “and then I learned to trust god, and I’ve been happy ever since” mentality. The christian spiritual journey amounts, essentially, to putting one’s faith in somebody else.

Well, certain sects/denominations of the faith amount only to that…others don’t.

I generalize, of course. But, at lest as I understand it, Christians are saved by acknowledging and repenting for their sins and inviting Jesus to work good through them. Thought this philosophy may help real people, character development of this kind, on its own, doesn’t lend itself to good storytelling. Too often, I think preachers authors take the easy, oversimplified “so then I opened my heart, and Jesus came in to solve all of my problems” approach, which is just nauseating. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure talented writers can and have made christian stories suspenseful and compelling to christians and non-christians alike. But this requires they focus less on “trusting Jesus” and more on the prerequisite personal growth.

I’m not exactly sure about most of this, but one thing did occur to me- most swear words are simply Anglo-Saxon vulgarities. There’s a different between “oh f-$*# it all” and “damn it all”. One is vulgar, but not blasphemous. The other is not vulgar, but very blasphemous. You might try making this distinction- I know a few people who will readily tell someone to f-$*# off, but refuse to say dammit.

Oh. See, I’ll say ‘damn’ and sometimes ‘hell’ (although I’m trying to stop both), but I absolutely refuse to say f——, etc. I won’t say ‘damn you’, though. That pretty much is a curse.

I am actually writing with a point: that we all make mistakes, and that Christians aren’t as perfect as we portray ourselves to be, whether intentionally or not. I, too, hate oversimplified works. Life is freaking HARD! It’s not easy, and having God doesn’t make it all magically turn into rainbow unicorns that poop gold coins and frolick in meadows. My (Christian) character is going to end up making some pretty dumb choices becuse she’s human. That’s the whole point to the story.

I do believe that your beliefs will shine through no matter what you write, the thing is, I want to write a story with a Christian protag—not necessarily Christian/inspirational fiction, but I’d rather actually mention God than just have ‘feel-good’ themes around, because I don’t think there’s enough of that around lately. If, as the ‘experts’ say, people read books to ‘safely’ experience bad things, then we have practically no resources of that sort for other Christians, and that’s a shame.

If the protagonists “worked” their way out of the problem, that would be promoting works over faith and not putting our trust in God like we should, etc etc.

I like what somebody I can’t remember said: You have to pray as though prayer’s the only thing that works, and then work as though work’s the only thing that works.

To be honest, I could never write a “BLATANTLY CHRISTIAN ANVIL” story. I’d almost feel… blasphemous, to be putting words into God’s mouth and saying what He does. After all, in the real world any more, God does not wander around actually talking to people or doing public miracles any more. In this age, we live in a world where God works through people, instead of around them. So to write a modern story in which God works blatantly would just be inaccurate. To write one in which the possibility is never discounted that God is influencing people, on the other hand, even if you never write the words “God is probably influencing Sally” in the story, is completely accurate… and much more palatable to read.

Amen to that, lol. Jesus doesn’t do your work for you. You can ask for help, but in the end, you’re the one who’s got to change. I’m only just realising that when it comes to writing.

Thanks for continuing the discussion, guys. This is really interesting.

Virgil, I didn’t mean the ideals were obnoxious- I meant that sometimes the people who espouse them are. Name one televangelist that isn’t annoying and hypocritical. Go on, I dare ya.

Nate- Perfect summary! God helps those who help themselves…

Virgil, I didn’t mean the ideals were obnoxious- I meant that sometimes the people who espouse them are. Name one televangelist that isn’t annoying and hypocritical. Go on, I dare ya.

No I meant the people too.

That makes no sense whatever. I’ve never read anyone from Paul to Piper who would agree with that statement.

Some of my Baptist friends believe exactly that. As a good Catholic I disagree, but it’s better left un-discussed with anybody holding a strong opinion on the subject.

I have to say, that is neither found or implied anywhere in the Bible, it was written by B. Franklin.

That’s why I called it an old country saying. ;-)

I’m sure he meant this B Franklin.

I didn’t say I agree with it Juniper, just said that some out there believe that. Especially hyper-calvinists.

Oh, right. Okay. Just makin’ sure we weren’t all going to wish away our cancer or believe our way to wealth.

Back on topic.

Any other issues we can think of here, or a…

HEY! Let’s do an article entitled: “Christian Writing: what NOT to do”!

That way it’s snarky, and it’s writing-related, and I’m sure if we stuck up a disclaimer saying ‘if you want to write an article on Muslim, Jewish, etc fiction, go for it’ it’d be okay. As long as we severely policed the comments section.

Ah, the end of democracy…

Here’s a question for you: can a work “earn” a Deus Ex Machina?

(spoiler example below)

Thanks, NP, that’s really interesting.

Personally, I would have some swearing because it just doesn’t sound realistic for adults to say, “Oh goodness, that friggin’ thing just won’t stop! Darn it!” I read a book where the characters sounded this way and was perpetually annoyed.

In that situation, I try to eliminate words that even pretend to be curse words, becuase, you’re right, they sound stupid.

But made up pretend curse words just sound stupid in general. Either you’d use the real words in that situation, or you’d stick to your guns and not use any curse words at all, even made-up ones.

Oh that’s the stupidest frakin’ thing I’ve ever heard.

Gorram it Jeni! You stop that right now.

As embarrassing as it is to admit, I say “oh my goodness” frequently.

A Christian person could probably safely say ‘shit’. I mean, seriously. It means the same as ‘crap’, ‘poop’ and ‘feces’, all of which are not swears anyway. Then again, I’m not Christian, so what do I know?

I use “gosh darn/ed” often, mainly in reference to xkcd.

I use it to reference to Sarah Palin.

But made up pretend curse words just sound stupid in general. Either you’d use the real words in that situation, or you’d stick to your guns and not use any curse words at all, even made-up ones.

I wouldn’t say that much. I’m still trying to pull “MRIFK!” out of obscurity. As in “Mrifk you!” or “Son of a Mrifk!” or, in the most extreme of situations, “By the surly beard of Mrifk!”

Yes, they do. Also, I tend to use “crap” a lot because, in my opinion, that’s barely even a curse. So, I’d say, either curse or don’t curse. Fake cursing just sounds bad unless the person using it is a child or that’s a character trait of theirs to fake curse.

I won’t even use that.

A Christian person could probably safely say ‘shit’. I mean, seriously. It means the same as ‘crap’, ‘poop’ and ‘feces’, all of which are not swears anyway. Then again, I’m not Christian, so what do I know?

Plenty :). But still, that’s like saying that it’s fine to say ‘f*ck’ because it means the same as ‘have sex’. It’s not the actual literal meaning behind the word, it’s what context it’s used in. The words sh*t, f*ck, etc, are strong language.

The rule of thumb I go by is that if people apologise for saying a particular word in a more formal situation then it’s a swear word, vulgarity, what have you.

I thought of something you could possibly do. You could start the curse, but sort of trail off. Like, “Son of a” and “What the.” It would be best if it wasn’t overused though because I think it could get old after a while.

One more thing to note if not be concerned about: swearing does help to date your work.

I mean, you can tell what era the Narnia series was written in because Lewis constantly refers to a donkey in book 7 as an “ass”. Of course, back then, not a swear word.

^^That’s true. But most work will end up dated anyway just because language changes as time goes on.

Well true, but language as a whole changes more slowly than things like swearing.

It took me a while to realise that “b———” in a Harry Potter novel meant that yes, wow, Lee Jordan was swearing.

I don’t recall exactly which one it was, but I think in an earlier novel, Lee was commentating on a match and Slytherin … huh.

Huh. It’s weird, because I’m fairly certain it happened, but it seems so unrealistic now.

It’s funny, because I’ve heard many Christians swear. The only people (who are older, of course*) I’ve met who deliberately don’t swear are Mormons, and I’m not going to discuss whether I think they’re Christians or not.

I don’t think I’ve ever read “Christian fiction” though. I’ve probably read a few Christian stories (the kind that end up in an inspirational collection of short stories), but, you know, I don’t know the genre so well.

*I’ve witnessed young children swearing. Fortunately, I’m not in a place where that’s commonplace and expected.

Of course, back then, not a swear word.

Jeez, get over yourself, Yank. :P It’s not now in Britain. Where Narnia was written. Ass = donkey.

Lol, for some reason, Nate saying ‘bum’ just made me crack up.

Ahem. Anyway.

I see you graduated from the Joker School of Supervillainy.

It’s important to help your minions laugh. XD

Same for heroes. It makes catching them off guard so much easier. :3

Going back on topic, for a long while, I’ve been having an itch to write a decent Christian fiction story, mainly because most of what’s out there nowadays is complete and utter drivel. Honestly, I can’t think of a recently published Christian fiction that has been decent. Anyway, this desire to write Christian fiction “right” has been leaking into all my stories recently, some more obviously than others (one of them actually involves a conversation with God…). The ironic thing is that I’m hardly a conventional Christian (You know them Moonies? I’m one). Even then, I’m not about to flinch away from the ugliness in the world, and I will write about that ugliness even as I make those characters that are most un-Godlike sympathetic. Would my writings, if they ever get published, be banned and ragged upon by most Christians? Probably. So why do I do it?

The way I see it, people are people. Supposedly everyone is a child of God regardless of race, creed, or religion, and He loves them unconditionally. Supposedly all the people in the world are brothers and sisters, and we should all love one another as such. But we don’t. How can we love someone who does such horrible things like rape and murder? How can we love people with such completely opposite beliefs and lifestyles than ours? How can we love others at all? By understanding them. And that’s why I write about the ugliness, so that others can come to understand why those ugly people act the way they do, so that they can sympathize with those ugly people treat them as people rather than condemn them as evil. In order to understand them, we have to know where they came from, what their beliefs are, and why they act the way they do.

You could say that the one recurring theme in all my writing is that people are people, and that is because, deep down, that is my main reason for writing: to show all my readers that, regardless of any differences, people are still people and deserve to be treated as such.

/tucks away soapbox

Kyllorac, you are not alone in your rant.

So, has anyone read any good Christian books that aren’t like most of what’s out there?

Well, anything by Lewis, Tolkien and Rowling I recommend.

There are some nonfiction Christians works I recommend (but whisper me if curious, they are DEFINITE flame bait) but I tend to stay away from a lot of “christian” fiction. Mostly it’s usually either 1) not a book that interests me or 2) too derivative of something else already.

I, of course, HAVE to recommend George MacDonald _{BECAUSE HE IS THE GRANDFATHER OF FANTASY, IS TOTALLY AWESOME, MIND BLOWING AND DOESN’T GET A FRACTION OF THE RECOGNITION HE DESERVES}.

Ahem

I’ve never read Left Behind, but I did thoroughly enjoy the Slacktivist recaps of it.

I’ve never read Left Behind, but I did thoroughly enjoy the Slacktivist recaps of it.

Though by book 2 Slacktivist starts to suffer from Mark syndrome and letting too much of his personal views color the commentary.

indeed you are wise sansafro.

I made it through the whole series (except for Glorious Appearing, which came out by the time I was old enough to know better.)

I hated Tim LaHaye’s other series, you know the one with the Archeologist. Was it Babylon Rising?
Anyway, I gave up after four books because everybody kept dying and it was just depressing and it was TRASH.

Angela Ewell Hunt’s The Immortal is possibly the best Christian book I’ve ever read. You know the legend of the wandering Jew? Well it deals with that from a Christian perspective. And it has a happyish ending. I recommend it. It was amazing.

And Kyllorac? Is there room on that soapbox for two?