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  1.  

    Okay, so basically, girls, tell the guys what you don’t want to see in a female heroine, and guys, tell the girls what you don’t want to see in a male hero. And what they can get away with.

    This idea could flop badly, or it could work. I have no idea yet.

  2.  

    Hmmm…. I almost don’t want to say because there are exceptions to every rule….

    I’d say (as always), “be true to the character”.

    If you had a Jock or “typical” male, then they’re not going to be caring, or introspective, or sensitive. Most of their thoughts will be sports, sex, food, tasks, related – single track. If you do have an introspective guy, he’ll probably be a bit on the nerdier side.

    If any girl wants real research on the subject, I’d say Wild at Heart is probably one of the best insights into Men that you’ll ever find. Even the nerds and “sensitive” ones love action, doing and adventures. (five minutes on WoW will tell you that)

  3.  

    Right, I’m out to catch me a nerd! Lol. Thanks, Nate; that’s really interesting.

    *rubs hands gleefully* It’s working!

  4.  

    Ok, girls if you want a man, nerds are like… trying to catch ants. Too easy and rich selection.

    Seriously, find where they congregate (duh…. easy), show up and proclaim “I’m a girl and I like [nerd object of obsession]”. If you don’t have 20 marriage proposals in five minutes then you’ll at least have 800 date offers.

    •  
      CommentAuthorMoldorm
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2009
     

    Based on my knowledge of nerds, I’d have to corroborate Nate.

  5.  

    I should add that those numbers only apply as a baseline.

    Thus, if you’re a 1 on the hotness scale of women, you’ll receive the above. As you climb up the scale, multiply each to get your expected numbers. (yes, a ‘10’ ranked girl would have a functional army at her disposal – one of the weakest armies of all time perhaps – but still better than the French)

    •  
      CommentAuthorKitty
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2009
     

    Nate is sexist.

    Surprise surprise.

  6.  

    That’s a little like claiming someone observing gravity is a physicist.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSpanman
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2009
     

    Uh, well. In my experience with nerds, whether or not I like whatever nerdy thing they like, they generally tend to ignore me. This may be because I have a nerd for a brother and I know how to get under his skin in multiple ways, or because I’m a 1 on the hotness scale, and there are much hotter, nerdier girls out there for the taking.

    Um. At the moment I can’t think of anything I don’t like reading about girl characters. Just for God’s sake don’t talk about boobs all the time.

  7.  

    Meh, nerds. Not too in to them. Sorries all around. ;)

    Well, in a female protagonist, I wouldn’t want to see much distress. (as in ‘damsel in distress’) I know it’s barely ever used anymore, and now the style is RBS (rebellious princess syndrome) but still. It just bugs me. However, I don’t want to see too much RBS either. So yeah, happy medium.

  8.  

    Well, the most important thing is being true to the character, and your character’s gender should affect their behavior but not define it. I will say though that you should try and make your characters sounds like guys or girls, IE men have more testosterone, which does affect one’s thought process.

    I wish I had more substantive advice at the moment, but for some obvious things to avoid, check out that manuscript of Midnight Sun on the internets, where, every other criticism of it aside, Ed reads like a middle-aged woman. There are some things that real men are just not going to dwell over in their true inner monologue.

  9.  

    Ed reads like a middle-aged woman.

    This is so true. I would also recommend checking it out. It promises lots of laughs too. ;)

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2009 edited
     

    If you make the girl character cry all the time, I will smack you. Yes, we cry substantially more than guys do. Yes, there’s certain girls (like myself, unfortunately) who have a tendency to cry easily. No, we don’t break down every time something happens.

    Also, girls are not all afraid of mice or spiders. I think both are adorable! They also do not exclusively get grossed out by “gross” things… I, for example, have no problem with gore (so long as it isn’t in real life and isn’t disturbing gore like in horror movies) or dead bodies or bugs or whatever.

    Finally, falling in love with a fictional character is not wrong!

    EDIT: And on nerds. Yeah, well, I’m probably the nerdiest person at my school (girl OR boy), but I still don’t exactly have guys lining up to ask me out…

    Now, were I to set foot inside a comic book store, I would probably be instantly besieged or something. From what I’ve heard, girls are a rather rare commodity in the comic book reading world, which would explain all the skintight spandex and why when a female character’s suit gets ripped, it is always in a convenient location to expose cleavage.

  10.  

    If you make the girl character cry all the time, I will smack you. Yes, we cry substantially more than guys do. Yes, there’s certain girls (like myself, unfortunately) who have a tendency to cry easily. No, we don’t break down every time something happens.

    I so want to make that character now for a parody.

    “They didn’t put cream in my coffee…. whaaaaaaaa”

    And of course, the character suffers a sequence of brutal deaths at the end.

  11.  

    @RVL: When you say you don’t want girl protags in distress, does the distress refer to the girl’s mental response or the situations she ends up in?

    I need to know since mine needs rescuing multiple times, but I’d like to think it’s mitigated by the character being in over her head, and the fact that she never really internalizes victim mentality.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2009
     

    I consider “damsel in distress” to be Bella Syndrome- the female lead is incapable of doing anything without her honey’s help, be it something so simple as walk two steps without falling on her face to something like disassembling the atomic bomb that’s going to destroy the world. It’s even worse when the main character should be able to take care of herself (Bella is supposed to be this stoic character who learns how to handle her emotions, as well as a very intelligent character who is easily able to adapt to any situation…) but can’t (...but yet Bella becomes a slave to her emotions and never can come up with good plans or anything involving thought).

  12.  

    In addition to that, girls are not just there to be the object of the man’s affection. We have personalities! We do things! We don’t only talk about clothes, boys, and stuff – we do actually value intelligence, according to a study I read.

    Also, for nerdy girls, we’re not all quiet. Some of us are stupid and loud, read while walking, bump into things, read while bumping into things, loudly bump into things while walking… yeah, don’t make the assumption that “nerd girl=wallflower.” While this can be true, it isn’t always.

    Also, we make mistakes. We stammer (and not in a cute way). We say things that sound totally wrong. In other words, your guy doesn’t have to make all the mistakes. The girl can make them, too (and this can be reversed).

  13.  

    @Swenson: Thanks, that’s reassuring. Hopefully her screw-ups will read like products of inexperience rather than ineptitude, and her rescuer won’t read like he rescues her because that’s what the man does.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeOct 7th 2009
     

    Yeah, I’ve got no problems with having an inexperienced female character (because if you try to avoid this, you end up with RPS); it’s just when she’s inept simply because she needs to be rescued that I get annoyed.

  14.  

    I think we can all agree to avoid annoying characters (aka: “jar jar syndrome”) no matter what gender.

  15.  
    As i happened to enter in the revolutionary thread by mistake:

    Tropes aren't evil, the clichés are. A dynamic character will most probably be able to balance out the "stereotypes" through portraying a genuine personality.
  16.  

    Hmmm… sansa, I realize that there are perfectly wonderful female characters who have to be saved all the time, so your story may just be an exception to my rule… But my original statement was referring to her situation and not really her mind. After all, she could think it was the end of the world and then somehow find a way out of it be herself. It’s really the fairy tale princess-like characters that I’m trying to lean away from.

  17.  

    You mean like this:

    PRINCESS: Oh, there’s a mud puddle, and I simply can’t bear to ruin my dainty slippers!

    PRINCE: Oho, I shall lift you above the puddle, so you don’t get your shoes or your dress dirty. lifts

    PRINCESS: swoons

  18.  

    Yes, like that and also:

    Girl: I’m cold.

    Guy: Here bitch, take my cloak.

    Girl: is in love

    Guy: has no personality

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2009
     

    Or,

    Girl: I am strong and independent! I can take care of myself!
    Slightly Unfortunate Situation (car runs out of gas, lost her purse, didn’t get a report done on time): poke
    Girl: collapses
    Guy: saves the day

  19.  
    aka Twilight
  20.  

    Guy: Here bitch, take my cloak.

    That amused me.

    I agree with most of what has been said.

    I have something to add though. They don’t always need a tragic, horrible thing in their past. Dean Koontz does this a lot. Almost all of his female protagonists are victims of sexual abuse, like that’s the only thing he think of or something.

    And this goes for all characters: The whole, “I am the main character, so I am the most special, wonderful person in the world. I am the chosen one” gets old. I don’t want to read about the chosen one. Let a minor character be the chosen one for once, and let the main character be normal-ish. Sometimes the chosen one thing works, but it is really overdone.

    •  
      CommentAuthorJeni
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2009
     

    Almost all of his female protagonists are victims of sexual abuse, like that’s the only thing he think of or something.

    I’ve read only one of his books and the female protagonist was abused, but not sexually.

    :D

  21.  

    That amused me.

    Yay, I made someone laugh! feels good

  22.  
    "And this goes for all characters: The whole, “I am the main character, so I am the most special, wonderful person in the world. I am the chosen one” gets old. I don’t want to read about the chosen one. Let a minor character be the chosen one for once, and let the main character be normal-ish. Sometimes the chosen one thing works, but it is really overdone."

    My main characters are the ones that actually mess everything in the other world up. So, it's like reverse chosen one.
  23.  

    I’m not really doing ‘chosen one’ per se, but one character is a kind of rare ‘half-breed’. I’m pretty determined, however, that this should turn out at least somewhat crappy for her- she’s not physically strong like a human, can’t use magic as well as a witch, and isn’t really accepted by either group. (I just don’t want her to be treated like she’s oh-so-special)

  24.  

    Could we move slightly back on topic, please?

  25.  

    Ok, people of the male persuasion, if you’re writing about a girl who likes a guy, please don’t assume that all our thought processes become all about that guy.

    We like you, but not that much.

  26.  

  27.  

  28.  

  29.  

    I think it’s kind of funny in that there’s not a lot guys can complain about because even if we ourselves aren’t like ____, we probably know someone (or have a friend) who is.

  30.  

    Does that mean that girls are more perceptive at writing guys?

  31.  

    Well, JK Rowling wrote Harry Potter, but Paolnin wrote Arya.

    What I know about guys is based mainly on my friendships with them and what I can pry from my dad and brother.

    Girls… there’s me and my sister. My mom, too, but not so much. My sister is a good resource for describing the social dynamics of popular people, which I use in palace scenes.

    • CommentAuthorWitrin
    • CommentTimeOct 14th 2009 edited
     

    Does that mean that girls are more perceptive at writing guys?

    Well, JK Rowling wrote Harry Potter, but Paolini wrote Arya.

    I think it comes down to a certain type of individual, it may seem like female authors are more perceptive, especially in, say, fantasy, but Paolini’s not the only one; there’s Terry Pratchett’s Tiffany Aching, Philip Pullman’s Lyra Belacqua, Jonathan Stroud’s Kitty Jones, Garth Nix’s Sabriel, Scott Westerfeld’s Tally Youngblood, Kevin Crossley Holland’s Gatty, Markus Zusak’s Liesel, etc… All of these are good characters for aspiring authors, male or female, to draw from.

    As for female writers creating male characters, I can think of Harry Potter, Cat Chant… What are some others? Howl?

    It’s probably telling that my favourite female character in fantasy was written by a female author and my favourite male character by a male author.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKyllorac
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2009
     

    As for female writers creating male characters, I can think of Harry Potter, Cat Chant… What are some others?

    I’ve always felt that Jane Austen’s male characters were more developed than her female characters (not that her female characters were undeveloped).

    Also, girls are not all afraid of mice or spiders. I think both are adorable! They also do not exclusively get grossed out by “gross” things… I, for example, have no problem with gore (so long as it isn’t in real life and isn’t disturbing gore like in horror movies) or dead bodies or bugs or whatever.

    Amen to that! I personally think snakes are adorable and would keep at least one as a pet if my dad didn’t have a strong aversion to them. And as for gross things, I happen to enjoy hunting large game, and what I kill I eat. This means, of course, that after you kill the beastie that you’ve got to gut them so that the internal organs don’t start breaking down and ruin the meat. Getting bloody up to your elbows while handling squishy organs with your bare hands tends to cure any squeamishness you may have possessed beforehand.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2009
     

    Yeah, when we were dissecting rats in biology, I thought I’d be really grossed out, but I ended up being the one who did all the slicing and dicing and digging around with internal organs. The intestines were the best because they were really long.

    Of course, this was cutting up an animal sans blood, but it really grossed out some girls- and quite a few guys, too!

  32.  
    We dissected a pig's heart last year.... It was somewhat amusing to see that I, the only vegetarian in the class, was the only one that wasn't nauseated by it.
  33.  

    In sixth grade, we dissected a store-bought chicken wing, and my female lab partner was still grossed out by it, mostly because it was slimy and cold. I ended doing all the scalpel work, which was fun!

    Now, I still have a fear of fire, which made me useless as a chemistry partner, but my lab partner was a pyro, so it was all good.

  34.  

    I love dissecting kidneys and hearts. I draw the line at brains.

  35.  

    TO GET BACK ON TOPIC... ahem hem hem

    It’s also annoying when you read a book about a teenaged boy and all they can think about is boobs. It might be realistic, but it sure is off-putting to anyone of the female persuasion.

  36.  

    Best book about a teenage guy I ever came across: Ordinary Ghosts by Eireann Corrigan. Has anybody else read this?

  37.  

    Eireann Corrigan

    Irish?

    But no, I haven’t read it.

  38.  

    It might be realistic

    Not that realistic. They’re probably thinking about asses and legs in addition to boobs, plus any other unusual fetishized body part.

    •  
      CommentAuthorEmil 1.4021
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2009 edited
     
    Feet?

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FootFocus (Making links seems impossible with Mac....)
    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2009
     

    It might be realistic

    They’re probably thinking about asses and legs in addition to boobs

    Um… according to the Gender thread, SWQ is a lady of the female pursuasion, correct? Who’s calling what accurate? I agree with the first part of that post (“It’s also annoying when you read a book about a teenaged boy and all they can think about is boobs.”), not because it’s annoying, but because it is not accurate. It is nothing more than a stereotype, same as “all girls hate bugs/spiders/mud” or “all maiden aunts have some weird hobby like collecting commemorative plates or salt shakers or something”.

  39.  

    That was mostly intended as a joke, but there’s at least a biological basis in the “teenage boys focus on the female form,” While it’s not an absolute rule, you’re kidding yourself if you don’t consider it an honest tendency, unless your teenage boy is prepubescent or unusually light on testosterone or gay.

  40.  
    *hem*

    brothers =/= boyfriends
    Big one I notice with girls writing brothers for their female protags is that the dude is either satanic spawn from hell (unbelievably so) OR so magically wonderful that...they basically act like wonder boyfriend of the century. Which is unnerving in Fan Fiction and just plain disturbing in in published fiction. *NORMAL* BROTHERS DO NOT CUP YOUR FACE IN HIS HANDS AND CALL YOU BEAUTIFUL.
    That is, unless the brother is Commodus, which is not the character I'm thinkin' the author was shooting for when she wrote that part...(yes, this whole face cupping incident was in a published book...)
  41.  

    NORMAL BROTHERS DO NOT CUP YOUR FACE IN HIS HANDS AND CALL YOU BEAUTIFUL.

    Ew.

    and yes, Eireann Corrigan is Irish.

    •  
      CommentAuthorAdamPottle
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2009
     
    Brady Bunch slashfic.
  42.  

    nononononoooooo! It’s Greg/Marcia or nothing at all!

  43.  

    That was mostly intended as a joke, but there’s at least a biological basis in the “teenage boys focus on the female form,” While it’s not an absolute rule, you’re kidding yourself if you don’t consider it an honest tendency, unless your teenage boy is prepubescent or unusually light on testosterone or gay.

    There’s also a bit with the conservation of detail (not to be confused with the conservation of ninjustu). Yes I know it’s a bit of a joke that there are no periods in fantasy land but let’s face it, telling us every. single. mundane detail of a character, every biological process and lustful thought gets boring, really fast (especially for those of us for which it is an every day reality).

    So yes, you could have a boy who’s every thought revolves around breasts but… why would you? What purpose does it serve the narrative? Telling the audience he’s a teenage boy means they’ll assume that’s the default thought anyway. Only show the audience what they need to know.

  44.  
    Wasn't that whole discussion about teenage boys only thinking about boobs a bit sexist. I mean, I'm a teenager, and I don't just think about.... No, wait. *Blushes*
  45.  

    This just in: men and women are different. More at 11 after our “water is wet” report and special segment: “attractive people get more attention than unattractive people.”

  46.  

    LULZ

  47.  
    Well, like any harcore feminist would tell you, what you just stated is true due to women being superior. Because they are less violent, since they give birth. (.... And I'm in a class consisting of 13 males to 5 females, and I'm honestly glad that it isn't the other way around, since girls get vile when in a pack....)

    Now I'm just rambling..... But fact is, most teenagers think about sex. It's only normal with the ammount of hormones in the body, male or female. It is just more commonly assumed that boys do so because it's more accepted than for girls. A girl thinking about sex will instantly be branded a slut, a boy will just be a silly teenager.
  48.  

  49.  
  50.  

    •  
      CommentAuthorEmil 1.4021
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009 edited
     
    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     

    •  
      CommentAuthorEmil 1.4021
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009 edited
     
    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2009
     

  51.  
  52.  

  53.  

  54.  

    Back on track:

    Obviously, there are girls out there who hate bugs, mud, fire, and like bows and lacey things and whatnot. How do you draw the line between Her Rebellious Red-Headedness Princess Alex(andra) and Princess Butterfly, High Princess of Sparkle?

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2009
     

    Because there are no (or at least extremely few) girls who entirely hate bugs/mud/fire and entirely love bows/lacy things any more than there are girls who entirely hate bows/lacy things and entirely love bugs/mud/fire. I don’t mind bugs or mud and fire’s pretty awesome, but I still like dresses and pretty things, too. All girls have an element of both- it’s like how there’s no such thing as an entirely “good” or entirely “evil” character; they’re all shades of gray. (unless it’s a parody or the whole point is that they’re entirely one or the other [a demon, a god, etc. would logically be all one or the other])

  55.  

    Seems like the best advice is this: make the characters ‘real’ and well-rounded.

    Stock or not, seems the biggest complaint here are cardboard characters.

  56.  

    Yeah, seems like everything always comes down to that.

  57.  

    It’s always rounded characters this, rounded characters that. GOSH! I’m sick of rounded characters! My readers can darn well get what they get!

  58.  

    Well, I don’t think all characters have to be rounded. Random Mook #3496 does not need a backstory or a treatise on why he is conflicted because he actually has a stalker crush on the fair damsel, unless he later turns into Kjahdid Bdsuehf, deserter of Emperor Liev’s Army and lover of the princess. I guess it comes down to “Is this character important?” If yes, then s/he should be rounded. If not, then it’s OK if s/he’s flat.

  59.  

    Makes it easier to squeeze under doors, too.

    •  
      CommentAuthorMoldorm
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2009
     

    Which is useful, because then you can reuse them and their stock personalities without anyone noticing.

  60.  

    I would insert my obligatory analogy, but I don’t know if it would be appreciated.

  61.  

    I don’t think I want to know what your obligatory analogy is. So Yeah.