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    • CommentAuthorMorvius
    • CommentTimeSep 18th 2009
     
    This is something that has bothered me for some time. In my book, my main character who has been trained in the art of swordsmanship from a young age has never killed before. And this makes me wonder about how am I going to deal with the first kill. I know that it varies from character to character but I think that this is a very important point to take note of. For some reason, most books seem to gloss over this point.
  1.  

    It would seem to me that a young swordmanship student would have always viewed killing in the most theoretical of terms. It wouldn’t seem quite real to them, even as they’re learning how to kill. Slashing at dummies is very different from slashing at a living, breathing person, and the young person would probably feel this difference pretty acutely.

    And I think you’re right about books glossing over this sort of thing. Sad, when you think about how much potential this kind of stuff has.

  2.  

    Yeah, books that gloss over first kills seem pretty ridiculous. Still, the only one who can really answer this question for your character is you. The only real advice I have is to go punch a punching bag, and then bunch a person, and then take the difference between the two and multiply it by about a hundred.

  3.  

    Whenever my characters kill I tend to kill them off. This does have a lot to do with the fact that I write a lot of angst though… The only thing I could suggest is to make him feel a whole lot of remorse.

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      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2009
     

    My characters usually feel terrible after their first kill, vomiting, nightmares, ect. First Kill in a lot of books really irks me, the characters feel bad for a chapter… and POOF by the next chapter they don’t even remember what happened.

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      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2009 edited
     

    Lots of bile. Remember that. Lots and lots of bile. Blood, guts, vomit, sweat, fever and urine. And that’s just the immediate response. There’ll be nightmares after that, especially if his first kill is unexpected. The initial smell will be overpowering, and with the adrenaline and sheer primal, visceral emotion (not any discernable, nameable emotion, just ‘emotion’ as a flood of energy or overwhelming non-thought), the character is going to be sensorily overwhelmed. detailed sight, and sounds will blur, fine motor skills will fail, touch smell and taste will be heightened along with detection of motion (as distinct from detail). If the characxter is morally driven, the conscience will kick in early; if not he or she will be in physical and mental shock for a while longer— shallow, quick breathing, trembling all over, barely articulate and unaware of their surroundings. They may even get cold fingers and toes because blood was rushed away from these sites in response to the adrenaline-charged situation.

    Ahem. Makes it sound like I’ve killed before. I haven’t, but I’ve been in some fairly visceral situations with angry dogs and fish and whatnot…

    In my experience, it’s always the smell, the sound and the texture that haunts you most. Once when I was in a competition situation I very nearly phoenix-fisted my friend’s eye, and the “squish” sound that his eye made, as well as the texture, is what haunts me. The actual event has blurred with time, but the sound has been emphasised, re-imagined and, most importantly, exaggerated over time to be worse than it was.

    But yes. Shakespeare did it well, I think: “Out, damned spot! out, I say! [...] What, will these hands ne’er be clean? [...] Here’s the smell of the blood still; all the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this little hand. Oh, oh, oh!”

  4.  

    My characters usually feel terrible after their first kill, vomiting, nightmares, ect.

    Blood, guts, vomit, sweat, fever and urine.

    Yes. Exactly. I’m thinking about making my character torture and then kill a small bird, and I think the nightmares are going to happen even then. So when it comes to killing another human, just think extreme. Extreme throwing up, horrid nightmares, etc.

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      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2009
     

    I know personally what the cold sweat, nightmares, vomiting, ect. Feels like, and it sucks.

  5.  

    Also, under know circumstances use the phrase “watering the ground with the sap of men’s limbs.”

  6.  

    Did that turn up in Eldest or Brisingr?

  7.  

    Some terrible and out of place musing by Roran in Brisingr IIRC. Not his first kill, but the lesson is not to have them wax poetic about it or else it’ll just sound stupid.

  8.  

    “watering the ground with the sap of men’s limbs.”

    That’s actually in there?!?!?

  9.  

    Ahem. Makes it sound like I’ve killed before.

    It did, actually, especially as you went into graphic detail. Which is actually very useful – I want my characters to fight in a war, but I’m holding it off for several books and I’m not sure I can go into that sort of tactical/emotion stuff yet.

  10.  

    Oh, my main character is going to kill someone really soon. She’s going to really flip out about and have nightmares and everything. I’m going to do my best to make sure that she doesn’t just forget about it later in the book.

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      CommentAuthorNorthmark
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2009
     

    As much as I love George R.R. Martin, I think he could have handled first kills better. Especially with Arya, unless the Starks are just that awesome.

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      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2009
     

    Ditto.^^

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      CommentAuthorArtimaeus
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2009
     

    I don’t think everyone’s stock reaction to their first kill would be the same. You don’t want to fall into the trap of having a brief but intense physiological reaction (vomiting and collapsing) without any lasting effect on the character’s psyche. And by lasting effect, I don’t mean just give the character nightmares and call them changed. Try to show a difference in the way that the character thinks. Does he develop a zealous hatred of his enemies to justify his action? Does he refuse to think about it, and start suppressing all feelings of guilt? Does he take an overly intellectual approach, and begin thinking of life largely in vague, metaphysical terms? There are ways to show that murder had a lasting effect on the character without (or in addition to) the cliched vomiting and nightmares.

  11.  

    I will disagree and say I liked Arya’s reaction(or lack thereof). GRRM’s not a hack, so you can guess based on the realism of the other characters that its absence wasn’t just an oversight, and I think it sets the tone for her character arc in which she grows steadily more detached and desensitized toward human life.

    • CommentAuthorMorvius
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2009
     
    For Arya...she didn't really seem to understand the gravity of what she'd done. I can't remember the exact details though.

    Anyway it is true...the experience would really differ from person to person. I guess I should just do what I think that character would do. (I am searching online for some interviews with war veterans.) And what about those young people? Who WANT to join the war for their country? I think that the way they deal with the first kill would really be different too. And not to mention they are using guns, so it is possible that they would feel more detached.

    This is quite interesting: http://www.sheehanmiles.com/2007/04/what-does-it-feel-like-to-kill.html
    •  
      CommentAuthorSMARTALIENQT
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2009 edited
     

    Arya

    I feel really ignorant here… Arya? Arya?!

    And here I thought it was a rip-off of Arwen…

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      CommentAuthorSpanman
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2009
     

    I just wrote a first-kill scene for one of my supporting characters and to be honest, I didn’t lay on the extremity of his reaction too thickly. I didn’t think it was really justified because firstly, it wasn’t exactly his fault, more just dumb luck, and secondly, the person he killed was the villain and he’d been after her for a long time. It did change him, however, and not all for the better, especially because his friend was killed at about the same time. The repercussions lasted through to the end of the story. I tried to avoid writing about his nightmares, too, because nightmares have become so incredibly cliche. D: What a hassle.

    • CommentAuthorMorvius
    • CommentTimeSep 20th 2009
     
    Oh no! Arya of A Song of Ice and Fire. Who is NOT an elf. Who is NOT a princess. What she IS, however, is awesome.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMoldorm
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2009
     

    Well, she is kind of a princess. With the whole King in the North thing.

  12.  

    I will disagree and say I liked Arya’s reaction(or lack thereof).

    I thought her reaction was rather appropriate (assuming it’s the one I’ve read) and I think she was in such a… er… chaotic situation, that she really didn’t have time to think.

  13.  

    ^ That’s what I thought too. Also, if she’s a little girl, without much knowledge of the world, and as resilient as she appears to be (I’ve only read the first book), it might even be that it wouldn’t upset her as much as a more mature/sensitive person.

    Or is that totally bogus?

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      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2009
     

    She gets more crazy in the other books…

  14.  

    Like crazy in a good way, or crazy in an insane way?

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      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeSep 22nd 2009
     

  15.  

    Kristin Cashore did it well— Katsa grew up killing since she was seven, so she’s quite desensitised.

    But moving on, my MC does actually kill someone when she’s trying to escape, and I want to know how long to dwell on it before it becomes wangst. It’s also a catalyst for her really trying to get out of ganglands, because she doesn’t want to do that ever again.

  16.  

    ASOIAF spoilers.

  17.  

  18.  

    On a topic unrelated to ASOIAF (but related to this thread), what are some books that show psychological effects of killing well?

  19.  

    I need to read ALL THE BOOKS

    Fix’d.

  20.  

    Well, yes, but the second one first, right?

  21.  

    Read 2, 3, and 4 simultaneously. It’s the only way.

  22.  

    Do you think Nathaniel’s response to killing that guy in Bartimaeus 1 was good, bad, or average?

  23.  

    I read this book only a few months ago and I’m completely blanking on that part. Which part again?

    • CommentAuthorMorvius
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2009
     
    Oh was it that old mage working for Simon Lovelace? I can't remember the details though....
    •  
      CommentAuthorSMARTALIENQT
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2009 edited
     

    I read the first two Barti books, too, and I can’t remember that part. Then again, this was when I was in sixth and seventh grade, so…

  24.  

    Oh right, that might be it, Morvius. Anyway, I think Nathaniel just kind of did it, without any time to really think about what he’d done.

    • CommentAuthorWitrin
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2009
     

    Maybe it was symbolic? The second book was considerably darker from Nathaniel’s point of view. (Kitty saved it. Kitty’s are awesome.)

    Maybe all of his increasingly apathetic behaviour from then on was a result of that and all the deaths they were directly responsible for a chapter later.
    At the end of tAoS, Bartimaeus said that he didn’t recognise Nathaniel, only John, and Nathaniel was pleased? Maybe he used John Mandrake as a psychological/mental shell whilst he recovered.
    He was still recovering from , as well, so maybe that’s why the effect wasn’t as immediate.

    If this has confused you, I apologise.

  25.  

    No, he said he didn’t recognise Nathaniel, only John, at the end of The Golem’s Eye. Nathaniel killed that guy when he was at the big meeting hall thing near the end of Amulet.