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A thread for all things epic.
What makes an epic?
What is an epic?
Is such and such (especially from the internet) worthy of being epic?
(note: we will be using the Nate WInchester scale of awesomeness for this discussion. As recognized by the US standards and measuring department, there are 10 kinds of awesomeness. Bacon – represents 1 kind of awesome [ amount doesn’t matter. 1 bacon, infinite bacon, still 1 kind of awesome]. Epic is the fabled “11th” kind of awesome. Anything beyond the measure of 10 is “EPIC”. That standard for measuring this is Theodore Roosevelt.)
The epic standard represented visually. (via cracked.)
Archive photo of Roosevelt using Thor’s magic hammer to battle Satan in the final days of WWII.
I am horribly guilty of badly misusing the word “epic” (at least in regards to literature) for most of my life. The first time I ever actually understood what it truly meant was when I read The Iliad. Now, you can complain about it or talk about how much you dislike it all you want, but the fact still remains that the Iliad is an epic! It’s long, it’s vast, it covers dozens of topics, it takes in dozens of themes, and the scope of the thing… is just epic.
So when I see the Pulp Fantasy of the Month book getting called “a sweeping epic” by some idiot reviewer, it just grates on my nerves. No, it’s NOT an epic! There have probably been less than a hundred true epics ever written- and from a devout Tolkien lover, I don’t even think Lord of the Rings is a literary epic.
I used to say “epic fail” quite often, in real life. I think I might have said “win” a few times, but we were at the point when people (highly exaggerating) would tell me that I always said it.
I don’t even think the Lord of the Rings is a literary epic.
Really? Why not? Out of any other book that’s the one I’d probably choose for a modern epic.
Well…
I dunno. It’s on the fence for me. It’s definitely a fantastic book, quite possibly the best book written in the last hundred years, but I’m very, very careful about labeling something an epic, at least in my mind.
Now, if one were to compile all of Tolkien’s work into a single volume, that would undoubtedly be an epic.
I read somewhere that Lord of the Rings was supposed to be an epic, but was split into three books because of publishing or something.
I use “epic win”, “epic fail”, and simply “epic” to describe something of great awesome. I know I use it too much, but I like to think I am geekier than I actually am.
I like to use it to describe music that evokes a grand feeling of power. Epic metal should be an actual genre.
The last chapter of Game of Thrones is the most epic thing I’ve read recently. (beware the spoilers)
http://moonshines.com/artwork/yapb_cache/to_be_the_dragon.dxmbhjrxfyo84o00soo0wgows.avuffkf65swk84sw8kkgcscoo.th.png
“it’s not epic without a choir”
Not true, as you said, but as a choir nerd, it certainly does go a long way.
Epic band: Streetlight Manifesto.
Now, some other epic music, again with the choir and orchestra in perfect symbiosis, is The Bridge of Khazad Dum from Fellowship of the Ring. I also think Battle of the Heroes from Return of the Sith might qualify.
Erm…for a comtemporary “Epic” you could try Marianas Trench’s “Masterpiece Theatre” I-III
@Rocky: yes, I see what you mean about competition between a choir and an orchestra. I’ve never come across such a thing myself, however.
Oooo! Epic music- Wagner’s Der Ring. Prior to hearing a couple of minutes of that, I thought opera was fat ladies screaming about love in Italian or something disgusting and rather disturbing. But Wagner… oh man. It’s beautiful. It’s epic!
Re: LotR- one novel, split into 6 “sub-books”, most often published in three volumes of two books apiece. The publisher wanted to milk it, and after how many years Tolkien was trying to get it published, he didn’t care to argue over it.
@swenson
>Re: LotR- one novel, split into 6 “sub-books”, most often published in three volumes of two books apiece. The publisher wanted to milk it knew that a 1000-page novel about an imaginary land wouldn’t sell, but three ~350-page novels would, and after how many years Tolkien was trying to get it published, he >didn’t care to argue over it.
Fixed.
Yeah, I don’t think LotR made him especially rich, though it did secure his place in fantasy literature forevermore.
@Dan – oh, hush. But yes, you’re probably right.
Story wise I would rank character growth as a measure of “epicness”.
For instance, I would rank Finding Nemo as an epic not because of the great distance traveled but because of the change we seen in Nemo and his father that they are almost unrecognizable at the end to the people they were at the beginning.
Thus, even though Eragon et al has the characters travel great distances, I do not count them as “epics” because there is no real change to the people within. Whereas something like Toy Story which doesn’t go further than a single town or neighborhood I would label an “epic” for the people Woody and Buzz become.
I agree and disagree. I think epics are ranked by character change moreso than just character growth.
I agree too if we are defining change and growth as different things. I didn’t consider that growth is generally considered positive while change encompasses negative and positive – thus you could have an epic where someone(s) undergoes a negative character change.
Overcoming interpersonal friction is something that’s been done apart from Toy Story. Don’t get me wrong; I consider Toy Story an extremely well-told and compelling story—a classic, as it were—but I wouldn’t rank it as an epic.
It was just the first thing to pop into my head as an example of a story that doesn’t “travel” much but still has lots of change within it. I’d also admit that it is a borderline case as whether I myself would rank it an epic (especially with both movies being weighed together) with my opinion varying from day to day. But there is more to it than just overcoming interpersonal friction. It is a tale where the focused characters overcome their own limitations as well as friction. (something which – for today – I consider pushing it to near epicness)
I think a true epic has to cover more than just characterization, though. That’s what makes it an epic, in my eyes- it covers everything well, not just one aspect of good storytelling. It’s got to have dynamic, interesting characters. It’s got to have a deep, intricate setting and backstory. It’s got to be expressed well (whether through film, drawing, or writing). It’s got to have a complex story and subplots. And it’s got to have many themes that cover a broad spectrum of human experience.
Maybe I ask too much, but I believe that an epic is only epic because it’s broad. It covers many themes and offers a compelling story. It’s complex, not simplistic, and has complicated characters to match it. Even the setting has to be deep- nothing in it can be superficial or basic, or it’s just a story, not an epic.
True swenson, but you can have simplicity in broadness. Like I said, I can’t help but think of Eragon in something that is trying to be epic yet fails. (you can see paolini looking at your list there and checking things off as he writes)
Personally I say characters are the corner stone though. A whether report of Earth could possess a intricate setting, backstory and cover a wide panoply of settings but without the people and seeing its effect on them, it’s worthless. Like the talk on music, if the epic doesn’t have a heart, it’s just noise. (which is why I don’t consider a lot of fictional creation stories to be epic even though they seem to fit the definition)
Maybe we should agree that epics are like porn.
We know them when we see them?
(maybe we should change this to the epic judgment thread)
As far as I’m concerned, Pixar is the only reason Disney’s lasted into the 21st century.
It’s not your opinion, that’s objective fact. lol
George Lucas is watching Pixar movies and silently weeping.
WARNING: Tolkien fan incoming
It is interesting, because even though most people (me included) consider Lord of the Rings as the closest thing to epic in modern fantasy, it was never considered as an epic by Tolkien himself.
In his lifetime, Tolkien created a fictional mythology that we now know as The Silmarillion and planned several epics based on this mythology – The Lay of Luthien, The Fall of Gondolin and The Children of Hurin, etc. They were to be written in rhymes like Illiad and such.
Too bad that he never completed any of them.
Too bad that he never completed any of them.
Isn’t it? I really would have loved to see a final, published Silmarillion. I’m not one of the purists who won’t read the Silmarillion because it was edited by Christopher Tolkien, but it would have been amazing if JRR could have lived long enough to finish it.
It is. ;_; Even the heavily condensed and edited version of Silmarillion amazes me, I wonder what the completed Simarillion would have been like.
I sometimes believe that even if Tolkien had lived for another century, he would not had been able to finish Simarillion. There are some stories that you have been creating for too much and for too long, that you never dare to finish it; you simply keep going.
True, true.
But to get on topic- what is it about ‘epic’ that people try to capture, but just can’t? Let’s just use Inheritance as an example because most of the people here have read at least one book of the series.
Some plot devices are common in all works that we define as epics. Good-versus-evil, moral quandrum, religious (philosophical) search for truth, some kind of a struggle in a colossal scale be it a battle against a giant sperm whale or a great medieval war.
Yeah. Epic has to be big. Sorry, Nate, but clownfish just won’t cover it. Plus the fish were supposed to be in Australia, and they had no accents.
Anyway. I agree with The Butterfly.
Yeah. Epic has to be big. Sorry, Nate, but clownfish just won’t cover it. Plus the fish were supposed to be in Australia, and they had no accents.
Anyway. I agree with The Butterfly.
Why would fish have australian accents? Actually, why would fish talk? Seems if you’re accepting that much, you’ve given up the right to complain about details.
Anyway, how big is big? I think perspective plays a big part. (who here has heard of watership down?) You can have an adventure within a few square miles but if the characters are small enough, then that small area could be as large as middle earth to them.
I read Watership Down… hated it, too. Not sure why any more, I don’t even remember a thing about it except it had rabbits in it and it lied to me because someone told me I would like it because I liked Redwall. grumble
Anywho.
The IC tries to be an epic, but fails miserably, because although CP tries to have an epic setting and deep characters… it really is very, very superficial. An epic can’t be superficial.
Re: LotR- yeah, I always thought the Silmarillion was more of an epic than LotR, or would be if it was finished. As it stands, it really isn’t a finished work and thus can’t quite be judged the same way.
Re: LotR- yeah, I always thought the Silmarillion was more of an epic than LotR, or would be if it was finished. As it stands, it really isn’t a finished work and thus can’t quite be judged the same way.
But this does bring up a larger question. Do you judge these multi part works together or separate? Ok, I’ll admit that It is debatable (you heretics) that LotR is an epic, but it’s unquestionably one if you take LotR, the Hobbit and Silmarillion (which was complete enough) all as one.
What about the Temeraire series? One book has them crossing asia to get to England. On paper fairly “epic” but even I wouldn’t say that book alone is an epic one. Now add all of the series together (which is ongoing) and…
^^ That is a good point.
Probably why Tolkien didn’t have the hobbits fly to Mount Doom on the eagles.
They didn’t do the eagles thing because Sauron would have seen them coming, and the eagles said no. Also, aiming for a chasm from that height- it’ll just land on the edge and then Sauron gets it back!
Ok, getting back on topic (because we’ve done the tolkien eagles talk once already):
So we’re all agreed that time is apparently one factor of an epic?
Since some people earlier in this thread were talking about “epic” music, I’d like to submit the piece of music that plays in the scene in The Lion King when Simba and Scar are fighting as an example of “epic” music. It certainly sounds awesome to me.
Hans Zimmer composes epic music, period.
Page length does not an epic make (see: anything Christopher Paolini writes).
See: Maradonia.
As in:
In summary of all the factors that have been brought up:
So, in turn, woud you say that a work have to qualify in all of these factors above in order to be classified as an epic?
@ Butterfly: Nice summing up. Although it make for nice pretentiousness, out of all the things you brought up, length of the work is the least important. Of course, some length is required for you to get that epic scale, but you don’t need to write a doorstopper unless everything in it is necessary.
What I’m saying is that you don’t need to try and fill up a page count before it officially qualifies as ‘epic’.
Otherwise, yeah, that’s a nice way of summing it up. What’s interesting is that I can think of epic films and epic books….but no epic games. At least, none are springing to mind at the moment. I guess that particular vernacular is unsuitable for an epic.
* Common themes of moral/religion/etc* Length of the work * Time * Complexity * Scale of the world the work based on * Backdrop of conflict/struggle
I think Baldur’s Gate II would qualify is a epic.^^
Otherwise, yeah, that’s a nice way of summing it up. What’s interesting is that I can think of epic films and epic books….but no epic games. At least, none are springing to mind at the moment. I guess that particular vernacular is unsuitable for an epic.
I think we’d have to return again to my question of do we count games alone or the work as a whole?
Some MMOs (yes, like World of Warcraft) are pushing to the epic definition if they aren’t already. What about the Final Fantasy series? Kingdom Hearts?
Of course, a lot of games have enormous scale built in and you’re already trying to save the world so… maybe it’s not that they are unsuitable for an epic, but that so many games follows the formula of an epic that kind of washes out.
Add “deep characterization” to the list. If a story has simplistic characters, I think it falls short of true epic-ness.
On videogames… consider the age of videogames. Compared to poetry, music, art, and novels, videogames are extremely young. It’s like the same argument as those who want to consider videogames “art” have- they have the potential to be epics (or art), but they haven’t developed enough yet to actually produce any examples that we could hold up alongside the Iliad as an epic (or hold up alongside the Mona Lisa as art).
Movies, on the other hand, have had more time to develop, as well as having a heavy background in plays. Drama is hardly new. On the other hand, videogames are an interactive medium, and don’t really have any great length of history behind them. In a hundred years, I think there will definitely be some true epics among videogames, though.
Movies, on the other hand, have had more time to develop, as well as having a heavy background in plays. Drama is hardly new. On the other hand, videogames are an interactive medium, and don’t really have any great length of history behind them. In a hundred years, I think there will definitely be some true epics among videogames, though.
I would say movies have actually been around as long as any other form of art. After all, they’re ultimately just another form of the ancient “play” and “performance” that that mankind has probably had since sitting around bored around the fireplace.
True… obviously, there are very different techniques in moviemaking than in plays (car chases, for example, aren’t exactly possible in classical Greek theater), but it is a good point. However, I still think videogames really have no precursor. I suppose roleplaying games could be considered an ancestor, but those haven’t really been around for much longer.
@swenson
>I suppose roleplaying games could be considered an ancestor, but those haven’t really been around for much longer.
Yeah, considering that they were invented in the ’70s and that the first computer game was made in 1956.
Technically, roleplaying games like DnD grew out of wargaming, which dates back to the early 1900s… but I didn’t really mean Pong or Adventure games anyway.
Add “deep characterization” to the list. If a story has simplistic characters, I think it falls short of true epic-ness.
Mmmm. How about The Lord of the Rings?. Neither do Norse mythologies have that deep characterizations. I think “deep characterization” is something that most epics have in common simply because they are great literature works, not something that defines epic in itself.
I think “deep characterization” should fall under a larger category of “decent, literature piece of work”. A work cannot be considered as an epic if it is not a decent, literature piece of work even if it qualifies (or attempts to qualify) in all of the categories above. Take Inheritance for example. Paolini tries to incorporate common factors of epic (large-scale conflict, moral quandrum, imaginary world, etc) but Inheritace still fails as an epic simply because it is a bad-written Star Wars fanfic.
Video games also suffer from a lack of interaction. A computer cannot decide how a character will react to a Comment or action.
I don’t really think that this^^ is something that will ever change.
Video games don’t really have a message. I think that’s a problem.
Video games don’t really have a message. I think that’s a problem.
Sure they do.
Also, this is an epic movie I am watching tonight in a memorial.
His pants are bad.
Good pants are for men made of weaker stuff than Dalton.
And Mr. Darcy.
I’m not sure if Final Fantasy series should be considered epic; if it was a continuous plot, maybe, but all Final Fantasy installments are individual stories.
The only video game that I could consider as an epic would be War of the Genesis. All of the seven installments connected into a single story and the plot spanned over several centuries, for one thing.
If that picture does not scream EPIC, I don’t know what does.
Well then warcraft is definitely going for epic status. WoW itself would technically qualify as an epic already, much less by the time it’s finished.
Now if we take ALL of warcraft (games 1, 2 & 3, WoW, all novels, comics and toys, etc) then it’s definitely epic. Though I’d say the makers of it have tried so hard to make EACH iteration epic that the series is actually suffering from epic-fatigue. (zing!)
*koff*geek*koff*
Lol, I thought that guy was holding a corkscrew for a second.
“Hi pot! This is the kettle. Guess what!”
Lol, I thought that guy was holding a corkscrew for a second.
I could say something, but then I’d have to go to the Perv Patch.
However, I can say this – if his sword is so epic that it can function as a corkscrew, a) what else can it do, and b) what the hell is he drinking?
It looks like a Covenant Carbine to me.
Or maybe some kind of stringless guitar?
Does that girl have a wing growing out of her head?
This is why you should wash behind your ears.
How about that Epic Mickey concept art?
They look like stuff out of a Miyazaki movie… I LIKE IT!
I LIKE IT!
Someone has to make this movie.
For some reason, I’m feeling “post-apocalyptic” yet steampunk.
Exactly. So… Hayao Miyazaki doing an anime adaption of Girl Genius?
If you’ve ever played KH2, you already know Mickey is about as epic as it gets already.
Does that girl have a wing growing out of her head?
Actually, it’s a guy. He’s suffering from a major gender crisis. And these two people are actually a same person. Yeah, a little confusing.
Talking about Hayao Miyazaki – It was originally planned that Miyazaki was planning to direct Earthsea, and that would truly have been Epic. If only his stupid son didn’t steal the project and ruin it to rubbles. groans
I found some more epic:
http://www.cracked.com/craptions/craption/1394
Well, Theodore Roosevelt is possibly the most awesome man to have ever lived…
What’s that? You don’t remember the time Punisher teamed up with Robocop and Terminator and blew your fragile little mind? Sadly, this is just an amazing Mike Zeck cover from a 1992 issue of “Action Figure News and Toy Review,” and not a lost issue of the greatest comic book ever produced. One can only imagine the body count this trio would amass. And also the awesome fight that would ensue when they inevitably turn on each other.
Yes everyone, it’s the possibility of the only comic Teddy Roosevelt would ever read.
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