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  1.  

    Found this yesterday and thought it would be worth talking about.

    EDIT: Decided to change the title to be more general.

  2.  

    Um. Very… profound…

  3.  

    Angel would totally kick Edward’s butt! He might break his foot in the process, but I think he’d be able to manage it…

  4.  

    Has anyone read the Angel comic series “after the fall”? It’s the official “season 6” of Angel and after that…

    Yeah, Edward would stand no chance.

    •  
      CommentAuthorArtimaeus
    • CommentTimeAug 13th 2009
     

    I’m disappointed. I would have expected a writer known for his strong, independent women (Zoe, Buffy, Echo) to come out against a glorification of ye olde damsel in distress.

  5.  
    •  
      CommentAuthorVirgil
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2009
     

    I dunno if Echo is that independent. Yet, I’m sure it will come out though.

  6.  

    I’m pretty sure he wrote Kitty Pride that way, too.

  7.  

    We all know what Stephen King thinks about Twilight...

  8.  

    I thought it was fitting.

  9.  

    I like this quote:

    “There’s no Edward Cullunus. He just gets shiny in the sun. Boreanaz would have him down in a heartbeat.”

    Well said, Joss, well said.

  10.  

    Orson Scott Card:

    http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1733748_1733752_1736282,00.html

    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeAug 20th 2009
     

    For a moment I thought it was the New York Times. :P

  11.  

    “You really want your teenage daughter to live inside the story of a girl who lies to her parents, invites a boy to sleep in her bed and trusts him not to take advantage of her?”

    The words of the Wisdom, amen.

  12.  

    These women look at me as if I’m insane. “But she can trust him. He really loves her. He’s…perfect.”

    headwall

  13.  

    In an era when much of the romance genre has been given over to soft porn, and dark fantasy is peopled with one-dimensional characters bent on grim violence, many readers have become hungry for pure romantic fantasy—lots of sexual tension, but as decorous as Jane Austen.

    It’s true, it’s all true!

    Today Mr. Darcy is a vampire.

    queue dramatic music NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    •  
      CommentAuthorElanor
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2009
     

    @RVL—My. Thoughts. Exactly.

    STOP RAPING MY PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, DAMN YOU. AAAAAAAAAAARGH.

    ...now I’m imagining Meyerpire!P&P fic…

    cries

  14.  

    Elanor, NOOOO! How could you place that though in my head?!

    •  
      CommentAuthorElanor
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2009
     

    It’s in my head, too. ;_;

    GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

  15.  

    I should be mourning the desecration of one of my favourite authors, but instead I’m laughing my head off.

    I don’t think I’m capable of taking anything seriously.

  16.  

    STOP RAPING MY PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, DAMN YOU. AAAAAAAAAAARGH.

    ...now I’m imagining Meyerpire!P&P fic…

    “Upset at the spontaneous combustion of Bella, Edward takes his frustration out on the first person to come along…. Mr. Darcy…”

    •  
      CommentAuthorKyllorac
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2009
     

    I should be mourning the desecration of one of my favourite authors, but instead I’m laughing my head off.

    Beyond a certain point, you just have to laugh, otherwise you’d be going on a mass-murder spree that would only end once you’d killed everyone within an 100 mile radius. Increase radius if access to a chem/bio lab is provided. :P

    Laughter: it kills the killer urges.

  17.  

    Laughter: it kills the killer urges.

    If that applies to the Joker…
    [shudder]

  18.  

    In an era when much of the romance genre has been given over to soft porn, and dark fantasy is peopled with one-dimensional characters bent on grim violence, many readers have become hungry for pure romantic fantasy—lots of sexual tension, but as decorous as Jane Austen.

    ... because Edward is not about violence. At all. He only wants to suck Bella dry – BAD – but you guise, taht is toatlly not violence because he lurves her and he is teh perfekshun!!!ELEVEN1!!1

    And what is wrong with sex scenes? If used correctly, they can give the story that extra twist. And what kinds of characters is DARK FANTASY supposed to peopled with? I dont know about you, but I find a little kink for killing in my protagonist much more appealing than lets say a guy who acts like he is constantly on PMS. So now if you excuse me, I have some desk bashing with my head to do (that and making pancakes:P)

    •  
      CommentAuthorArtimaeus
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2009 edited
     

    Oh, come on. The guy who wrote about a ruthless, xenocidal (and undeniably awesome) 12-year-old is complaining about grim themes in fantasy? Granted, dark fiction isn’t the kind of thing the average twihard would read, but it’s not like there’s a void of shameless female wish-fulfillment. Most of it may be formulaic smut, but Romance is still best selling genre of fiction.

    I suppose I’m just a little tired of everyone saying that Meyer is this original phenomenon. Edward is not the original perfectly romantic, doting, beautiful man, and Twilight did not invent paranormal romance. Meyer’s stories do not reach out to the youth like nothing else before them. Her success is merely the result of good marketing.

  19.  

    I don’t get why anybody even gives her anything resembling credit for Edward’s character, especially real writers.

    It’s not challenging to write a “perfect” character, yet Meyer still managed to flub it. That’s what bugs the shit out of me when people talk about him, and how perfect he is, like it’s something unique.

    Watch this.

    I just invented a character named Mike McGillicutty. He’s better looking than Edward, twice as rich, stronger, faster, totally immortal, much more intelligent, kinder, more loving, more artistic, and is a much better dresser. He’s also ten times better at sex.

    How amazing is he? Didn’t I just totally top Meyer at making an awesome character? What a challenge that was!

    •  
      CommentAuthorElanor
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2009
     

    To me, it’s not so much that Edward is perfect as that Edward is blatantly not perfect. If Edward really were perfect, I’d be criticising the fact of his perfection yet still wishing someone like that really existed. As it is, Edward is so imperfect, and in such a way, that it creeps me out when people think he’s perfect. That’s what I pick at.

  20.  

    As it is, Edward is so imperfect, and in such a way, that it creeps me out when people think he’s perfect.

    I know, but Meyer was trying to write a perfect character and botched it because she’s awful. I’m not sure which bothers me more though, the fact that people read him as “perfect,” or those people who read him that way act like Meyer accomplished some kind of feat in writing an allegedly flawless character.

    For some reason I’m reminded of Meyer’s opinion on who would win in a fight between Edward and our boy HP. I think that’s the point where I really started to dislike her.

    •  
      CommentAuthorDiamonte
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2009 edited
     

    For some reason I’m reminded of Meyer’s opinion on who would win in a fight between Edward and our boy HP. I think that’s the point where I really started to dislike her.

    I didn’t hear about this. What happened?

  21.  

    I didn’t hear about this. What happened?

    Something along the lines of “Edward would snap Harry’s neck before Harry could do much of anything,” and seemed proud of Edward using his overpoweredness to kill a decent human being without hesitating. It was like, no shit he would win, but that’s like being proud your pitbull would eat a kitten. Harry’s powers are reasonable and limited.

    That’s just endemic of the bizarre viewpoint I’m talking about though, like these fans seem to think that any hack couldn’t just come up with a stacked character and that Edward is somehow special.

    How does it relate to the topic at hand? I’m annoyed that famous creative types don’t blast her about it when asked about Twilight.

  22.  

    Poor Harry. He’s ten times the character Edward is, though he can be annoying sometimes.

  23.  

    The thing about Harry is that he doesn’t actually kill people. He’s used an Unforgivable once – and that’s Crucio against a psychotic freakazoid who just killed the closest thing he had to family. Spoiler: Edward is all “I don’t kill people, just animals, after my ten-year blood fest,” and then he goes out and kills not one, not two, but at least three vampires, and is prepared to kill more. Harry doesn’t kill people, and doesn’t pretend he’s perfect. Edward kills tons of people, but still maintains the illusion of perfection. How fair is that?

  24.  

    Well, it’s not as if killing a person automatically makes a character OMGevul!, but their reaction to doing it definitely tells a lot about their character.

  25.  

    @SMARTALIENQT

    >He’s used an Unforgivable once – and that’s Crucio against a psychotic freakazoid who just killed the closest thing he had to family.

    You’re forgetting the part in The Deathly Hallows when he uses the Imperius Curse on a Death Eater and a Gringotts goblin.

    •  
      CommentAuthorJeni
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2009 edited
     

    He’s used Avada Kedavra too, hasn’t he?

    No wait, I made that up.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKyllorac
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2009 edited
     

    I think once.

    I need to reread the series. XD

    •  
      CommentAuthorJeni
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2009
     

    Me too. XD I was talking about the ending with a friend, and he was all: “Uh, Jeni, that’s not how it went…”

    OOPS.

  26.  

    No, Harry never uses AK. I think in some ways, it speaks better of his character(and the increasingly deteriorating situation in DH) that he used Imperius and Cruciatus, but never crossed that last line. He was never supposed to be a perfect model of goodness, and I think using those curses humanized him in a way that not using them wouldn’t have, if that makes sense.

  27.  

    It is not about the characters themselves as much as how the author portrays them.

    Harry Potter is a role model, but he is not perfect. Harry Potter has his own flaws – he can be egoistic and biased about certain characters – but in no way does Rowling show these traits in a good light and Harry Potter pays his price for his mistakes. He pays for his ego with the death of Sirius, and he pays for his prejudice and hatred with the scarring of Malfoy; and he turns out to be wrong about Slughorn and Dumbledore after all.

    In Twilight, Edward do have his flaws, but the problem is Meyer glorifies or completely ignores the flaws. Edward is egoistic and machoistic, but they are actually shown as a desirable trait. He has killed humans before and is in every sense ready to kill again, but Meyer completely ignores consequences of these actions; Edward is so hot that he just cannot be guilty.

    Harry Potter and Edward both have their flaws; Rowling teaches her readers consequences of such flaws, while Meyer asks her readers to accept these flaws no matter what. and that is why Rowling is a better writer than Meyer.

  28.  

    Edward is egoistic and machoistic masochistic

    Fixed. Also, maybe it’s the Sparkly Vampire Toy, but Edward as a masochist… oh God no BRAIN BLEACH!

    •  
      CommentAuthorZombie Devin
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2009 edited
     

    No, Harry never uses AK. I think in some ways, it speaks better of his character(and the increasingly deteriorating situation in DH) that he used Imperius and Cruciatus, but never crossed that last line. He was never supposed to be a perfect model of goodness, and I think using those curses humanized him in a way that not using them wouldn’t have, if that makes sense.

    Just like Batman!

  29.  

    Just like Batman!

    O_O

  30.  

    To me, it’s not so much that Edward is perfect as that Edward is blatantly not perfect.

    Even if he was perfect, I’d still despise him. Perfect characters have always gotten on my nerves; they’re just not interesting.

  31.  

    http://www.pluggedinonline.com/read/read/A0004206.cfm

    These people rate things content-wise.

    •  
      CommentAuthorArtimaeus
    • CommentTimeAug 27th 2009
     

    That’s a good article.

  32.  

    It is indeed.

  33.  

    That is one of the two reasons I am not reading those books. The other is what is ripped apart here.

    •  
      CommentAuthorArtimaeus
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009 edited
     

    Wow, I only just noticed that the article was from a conservative christian website. And here I was thinking that fundamentalists were all gushing about Twilight because it promoted abstinence before marriage. I don’t think I gave them enough credit.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSpanman
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009
     

    That article just made me feel physically sick.

    •  
      CommentAuthorArtimaeus
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009
     

    Strange. I didn’t catch anything overtly conservative about that article on my first read-through, except maybe when it complained about the violence and sex in Breaking Dawn. They were spot on about Bella’s unhealthy obsession,

    Consumed as she is with young love and the unblinking conviction that as a human she’s nothing more than an awkward ugly duckling, she not only refuses to let anything or anyone stand between her and Edward, but also her self-determined destiny of vampiric perfection and immortality. Not her family. Not her friends. Not her life. Not even her soul—

    Of course, were I writing the article, I would have not brought Bella’s soul into it, but I agree with them on most of their point, though probably for different reasons. They see Bella embracing temptation (oh the horror), while I see her being shallow and stupid.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSpanman
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009
     

    The problem I have with the article is that the reviewer sees (almost) all the issues, but in the end doesn’t really commend or condemn the books for them. I almost get the feeling that he’s disgusted with what he read, especially the end, but he doesn’t say so. I understand that he just wants “to give you as much information as possible about a story’s moral underpinnings”, but it would be helpful if he put some more conclusion on it.

  34.  

    Yeah, spanman, that’s how I feel about them. They only give you content, and rarely an opinion.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009
     

    I suppose that’s the point, though- they aren’t really trying to review the book, just explain it and leave the decision of whether it’s a good book or not up to the reader. (Which, actually, is nice… there’s times when you just want to know what’s in a book/movie and decide for yourself or whoever you’re deciding for rather than hear someone else’s view.)

  35.  

    Points to swenson (is it any wonder you’re my favorite?). As someone steeped in that culture they are concerned more with giving parents what the parents need to make entertainment choices. Used to they were real bad about condemnations (one would take Harry Potter frequently to task for breaking school rules) but I think the neutral stance is better.

    For instance, some are quick to condemn any movie that has drug use (including tobacco). I’m more concerned about the context. Is it only the villain – a despicable lowlife – that smokes? Does he suffer consequences of his actions? Context is everything.

    (example: in my main work, the character drink wine, mead, beer, etc. But then what else would they drink in a world without refrigeration or sodas?)

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009
     

    Yeah, I’ve never gotten the criticisms of fantasy books for having smoking/drinking. Like Lord of the Rings- written by a professing Christian with an obviously Christian world-view (yes, I know it’s not an allegory, but it definitely has Christian influences), and everybody is addicted to pipeweed and ale. Now if you had your main character speaking well of someone who she admits is her “heroin”... that might be questionable.

  36.  

    “Aw, honeybuns, you know what? You’re exactly like a drug that ruins people’s health, relationships, and minds. That’s just how much I love you!”

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009
     

    Wow! Such an accurate description of Edward! Bella’s finally catching on- oh no, wait, she likes that about him.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSMARTALIENQT
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009 edited
     

    Points to swenson (is it any wonder you’re my favorite?)

    To the ship! (thread)

    Now if you had your main character speaking well of someone who she admits is her “heroin”... that might be questionable.

    My little sister takes special offense at that. I have trained her well.

    Wow! Such an accurate description of Edward! Bella’s finally catching on- oh no, wait, she likes that about him.

    “He’s like a drug to you, Bella!”-Jacob to Bella.

    Let us recap:

    Edward: Obsessive stalker who freely admits to wanting to kill Bella on a daily basis. Is Bella’s “drug”, as she is his “heroin”. Leaves her in a zombie-like state for four months.

    Jacob: Nice, clean-cut kid who loves Bella. Gives her her space, has never wanted to kill her. Is Bella’s “sunshine” compared to Edward’s “eclipse”. Slight issue with pedophilia.

    Yeah.

  37.  

    I have a question- what if the person a werewolf’s meant to imprint on is never born? Or they die before you meet, or you go through life and never meet…they could marry someone else and go on with their life, right?

    •  
      CommentAuthorArtimaeus
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009 edited
     

    That’s what I plan to do, assuming I don’t imprint on somebody’s newborn hellchild.

    • CommentAuthorWitrin
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009 edited
     

    I think that must be right. After all Imprinting is said to be rare, right?

    Although it does seem to happen every few chapters or so.

    •  
      CommentAuthorAdamPottle
    • CommentTimeAug 29th 2009
     
    that's 'cause Twilight is SPESUL
  38.  

    As if anyone needed more proof that fundamentalists don’t like twilight. How fundamentalist is this person? Not only does she condemn Harry Potter, but Narnia and Tolkien as well.

  39.  

    In my wonderings on the web, I came across this.
    http://hogwartsprofessor.com/?p=354

    Iranian Daily: Harry Potter, Billion-Dollar Zionist Project
    In an article, the Iranian daily Kayhan, which is identified with Iranian Supreme Leader ‘Ali Khamenei, criticized Iran’s Culture and Islamic Guidance Ministry for approving the distribution of the new book in the “Harry Potter” series.
    The paper said that “Harry Potter” was a Zionist project in which billions of dollars had been invested in order to disrupt the minds of young people.

    Clearly II must now undertake an effort to get Twilight released into Iran just to see what their reaction to it would be.

    •  
      CommentAuthorArtimaeus
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2009
     

    They’d probably just call Edward a pussy (or an equivalent farsi word)

  40.  

    Either that or a role model.

  41.  

    Fantasy and imagination can transform beliefs and values more quickly than reality.

    Oh no! Not imagination! She must really hate Barney…

  42.  

  43.  

    And what accord has Christ with Belial?

    What does it say about me that I saw “Belial” as “Bella”?

    They are willing to accept any garbage as input.

    Well, that is true, though the rest of the article was… bovine manure. Like, “do I count the flaming homosexuals as boys?” and how the word “occultism” without really explaining what it meant.

  44.  

    What does it say about me that I saw “Belial” as “Bella”?

    lol I did too.

    how the word “occultism” without really explaining what it meant.

    If I remember her site correctly, that word is always linked to a main article that gives her definition of it.

    Or I can save you time by saying:
    “Occultism is anything I disagree with.”

    •  
      CommentAuthorMoldorm
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2009
     

    lol I did too.

    As did I, to my eternal shame.

  45.  

    What does it say about me that I saw “Belial” as “Bella”?

    lol I did too.

    I did that too when I read the block quote. This is not a good sign for us…

  46.  

    And what accord has Christ with Bella?

    I think we can all agree that there is a lot of truth to that misreading.

  47.  

    Hey, guys! Look what I found!

  48.  

    ^^That’s good.

  49.  

    Go Lauren Bacall!

  50.  

    The actress commented that, “Yes, I saw Twilight – my granddaughter made me watch it, she said it was the greatest vampire film ever. After the ‘film’ was over I wanted to smack her across her head with my shoe, but I do not want a (tell-all) book called Grannie Dearest written on me when I die. So instead I gave her a DVD of Murnau’s 1922 masterpiece Nosferatu and told her, ‘Now that’s a vampire film!’ And that goes for all of you! Watch Nosferatu instead!”

    Quoted for Truth and Win.

  51.  
  52.  

    Well, whoever said it deserves a pat on the back.

  53.  

    shiftyeyes

    Damn, I thought I had it so perfect…

  54.  
  55.  

    The people who comment on OMG Yahoo! are always spammers. It’s weird. They always want you to date millionaires.

    /end derailment.

  56.  

    She got to meet Joss Whedon and Neil Patrick Harris? cryyyyyy

    • CommentAuthorRocky
    • CommentTimeSep 12th 2009 edited
     
    bq. For instance, some are quick to condemn any movie that has drug use (including tobacco). I’m more concerned about the context. Is it only the villain – a despicable lowlife – that smokes? Does he suffer consequences of his actions? Context is everything.

    I agree and disagree. I know this is straying off topic, but let me explain. I think most parents subconsciously understand the notion of imitable behavior, but they don't know how to express that apart from banning it altogether. Kids are susceptible to all sorts of influence, and even if the character in question is overtly evil, they could also be perceived as cool (I don't think I need to provide any examples), and their actions--including any less than savory habits--might be categorized similarly.

    That's one reason I'm ever so slightly dubious of the Goodfeathers in _Animaniacs_. They're harmless pidgeons there to fill out the comic roles in that cartoon, no question. Problems might arise, however, when an internet-savvy child manages to discover the Goodfeathers' inspiration and start absorbing and imitating "the real deal".
  57.  

    ^^I think that as long as parents teach their kids right from wrong, they probably won’t imitate bad behavior. I’d say children over the age of seven or eight should be old enough to understand that just because someone “cool” does it, it doesn’t mean it’s right, so long as they have been taught these things, that is. Parents should always make judgement calls about what their kid is mature enough to handle and what they aren’t anyway.

  58.  

    As far as morality goes, I think I learned more from books than I did my parents in some ways.

    •  
      CommentAuthorElanor
    • CommentTimeSep 13th 2009
     

    As far as morality goes, I think I learned more from books than I did my parents in some ways.

    Ditto to that. My parents mainly left me alone as to forming my morality. I lived in books as a child, and still kinda do.

  59.  

    My parents took such a hand in my upbringing that I still look both ways before I cross the street.

    Even if the street is clear.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2009
     

    Same with me…

    • CommentAuthorRocky
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2009
     
    Still doesn't stop them from taking four-year-olds into PG-13 movies.

    *strangles*
    •  
      CommentAuthorDelzra
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2009
     

    Or ten-year-olds to see Superbad.

  60.  

    Or eight-year-olds to see Watchmen.

  61.  

    Yeah, I’m sure an eight-year-old would love seeing 2 hours of blue dick.

  62.  

    You wouldn’t believe the number of kids I saw in the theater when I watched Watchmen.

  63.  

    The question is, how many parents would’ve avoided bringing their kid if they knew the movie had blue dick in it? Probably a pretty disappointing fraction, I’d wager.

    •  
      CommentAuthorMoldorm
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     

    How about all the violence and profanity and sex and such?

    Stupid parents and their silly comic book assumptions.

  64.  

    I agree and disagree. I know this is straying off topic, but let me explain. I think most parents subconsciously understand the notion of imitable behavior, but they don’t know how to express that apart from banning it altogether. Kids are susceptible to all sorts of influence, and even if the character in question is overtly evil, they could also be perceived as cool (I don’t think I need to provide any examples), and their actions—including any less than savory habits—might be categorized similarly.

    Which still boils down to my point: context matters. As an example, while it is painful to watch, I can’t help but appreciate Peter’s “dark turn” in spider-man 3 where he doesn’t become ‘cool’ but what he thinks is cool (and even dorkier as a result). Another example: in the commentary for the episode “Lucifer Rising” of Supernatural, Kripke talks about how he had to tone down some of the “sacrilegiousness” of the scene of Azazel possessing a priest. Realistically though, that doesn’t bother me (well, actually watching the acts does, I’m glad they hinted at what was done more than show it) because Azazel is a demon, you’d expect them to be sacrilegious. And if your kid wants to imitate a demon, then you have bigger problems than what they’re watching.

    Of course, some villains even I’ll admit are kind of cool and parents should probably be wary of their kids imitating that. But there are some that… (yes I’m looking at you Joker) well if your kids want to imitate that, then you have much bigger problems than media – it’s just giving your kids an outlet for something dark they already have.

    But that’s another rant about parents and their tendency to treat symptoms and not diseases.

    Stupid parents and their silly comic book assumptions.

    Isn’t that a subset of animation age ghetto? You guys are convincing me that my next writing talk will be on “adult” topics.

  65.  

    hey, a trope I haven’t heard of!

    (And thanks, guys, for giving out HP spoilers without hiding them. Not Sirius!)

    •  
      CommentAuthorMoldorm
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     

    Isn’t that a subset of animation age ghetto?

    It is indeed. I was actually going to link straight to the trope, but decided against it on grounds of laziness.

  66.  

    You guys are convincing me that my next writing talk will be on “adult” topics.

    Yes, please!