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General: Protagonists

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  1.  

    Basically a thread to talk about anything relating to protagonists. Examples of good protags, bad protags, Sue protags, problems with the ones you’re writing…

    • CommentAuthorCodeWizard
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     

    I’m a great protagonist.

  3.  
    Tell us all about yourself so we can all copy you and have fantastic protagonists for our books. Which we'll then make millions. Yes, let us shamelessly exploit your protagonist status.
    • CommentAuthorCodeWizard
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     

    If I told you about myself I would have to kill myself.

  5.  

    A question to get this thread on topic again- what’s the line between having a Mary Sue, a morally gray, realistic character, and an unlikeable monster?

  6.  
    Ah, trade secrets. I get it.
    • CommentAuthorCodeWizard
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     

    Unlikable monsters and sues both have shallow motivations. It’s a circle, not a line.

  8.  
    And Mary-Sues generally have forgivable "flaws." Like "extreme shyness" or "Cowardice with no terrible result." I think that real characters should make massive blunders along the line that propel the story forward and give them a reason for staying engaged in the action.
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      CommentAuthorCorsair
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     
    You can have a character who shits rainbows and pisses pure joy and not have them be a Mary-Sue. Suedom has nothing to do with the character's ideology or abilities or whatever - the Purity Sue and the God-Mode Sue are just as much of sues as the Jerkass Sue and the Villain Sue. Suedom has more to do with how other characters treat the sue than anything else. That's why Eragon, Edward, etc, etc, are Sues (Edward is also a Magical Girlfriend converted to masculinity) while characters like, say, Peter Pevensie, Aragorn II Elessar, and Ciaphas Cain are not. Because a Sue is regarded on a different level than other characters, whereas Peter, Aragorn, and Cain all get the treatment you would expect towards someone in their position.

    Furthermore, Morally Gray does not equal realism. There are plenty of people in the real world who you would have a hard time describing as 'Morally Grey'. Mother Theresa and Gandhi for two. Admittedly, they were exceptional figures, but then again, the protagonist of most books are also exceptional people. People confuse a character being morally grey with a character being flawed. And while yes, moral greyness is technically a flaw, it's like saying your villain is a flawed character because he's Evil. Yes, it's technically accurate, but it's still a load of horseshit.

    Also, a character being flawed does not preclude them from being a sue - one need look no further than our friend Bella, what with her clumsiness and plainness.
    • CommentAuthorCodeWizard
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     

    Okay buddy. What about a character who is loved by everybody but hates herself. Is that a sue?

    Sue has nothing to do with treatment either.

    • CommentAuthorGolcondio
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     

    Then let us say that if the readers feel that nothing really bad can happen to the main characters because the author cares too much about them, then you’re likely you have a Sue.
    When the character is described as lovable, caring, popular et cetera, but somehos fails to behave accordingly or to show understandable reasons why others love him/her, it might be a Sue…

    Don’t like it? Sue me!

    • CommentAuthorCodeWizard
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009 edited
     

    What if the character does not like herself and cannot understand why the world likes her at all?

    I’m finding counter-examples because it’s fun watching you guys squirm.

  13.  

    koff Bella koff

    Too easy.

    • CommentAuthorCodeWizard
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     

    Bellas motivations are about as complex and exciting as one handed clapping.

  15.  

    Your point being?

    Question related to Bella and question related to link both apply.

    • CommentAuthorCodeWizard
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     

    My point is superficial characters have superficial motivations and that’s the main indicator of a sue.

    •  
      CommentAuthorVirgil
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     

    Was Jon Snow from ASoIaF a Sue? Out of all the characters in the series, he was probably the closest.

  18.  

    @ CB: So our points are both that Bella is a Sue. Does the method of arriving at that conclusion matter, as long as we get there?

    @ Virgil: I can’t help you. Soz.

    • CommentAuthorCodeWizard
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009 edited
     

    Yes, reasoning correctly is important. It’s like trying get rid of a tumor of by cutting off random body parts otherwise.

  20.  

    Lol, I know that. I just like to rile you. Every CB needs a counter-antagonist.

    I think Sue-ism is one of those things which doesn’t have a be-all and end-all description. Like the tale about the elephant and the three blind men. You just need to go into a lot of detail.

    • CommentAuthorCodeWizard
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     

    I’m not riled tho.

  22.  

    sigh

    • CommentAuthorCodeWizard
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     

    lol

  24.  
    @Corsair: By "flaw" I mean actual character flaws, not just clumsiness or plainness. Those are things the Sue cannot control, and therefore are not flaws that she can fix. I agree with the "it's how the other characters treat the Sue" idea, but I would couple it with some actual character flaws. Ex.: Bella sure has a lot of character flaws. We all know this. BUT NONE OF THE OTHER CHARACTERS TELL HER THIS, so what is indicated is that they really don't count as flaws. No one ever tells her she's stupid and needs to improve. So that's where Character Flaw + Other People's treatment of the Character can be a two-pronged assault.
    *shrug*
  25.  

    applauds

  26.  
    *would like to thank Steph...and the Academy*
    Anyway, YEAH tell us about them protagonists!
    •  
      CommentAuthorCorsair
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     
    I'm aware of that, Rikki. It's hardly a work of brilliance to realize Bella's 'flaws' suck ass.

    Bastard, the only example of a character like that I can think of is Bella, and, well...she's a sue.
  28.  

    I like this definition of Sue. I think that litmus tests only do so much, because then your character a) turns into a meaningless scrap of wallpaper, or b) becomes an Anti-Sue.

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      CommentAuthorCorsair
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009
     
    Yeah, Litmus Tests are pretty much a complete waste of time.
  30.  

    At best they only tell you how many cliches you’re using.

  31.  

    Well, some cliches are unavoidable. My character is dark-haired. I’m not going to describe her as having raven tresses, but there it is. +1 on the Sue count.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2009 edited
     

    Litmus tests are great for driving the point home to people with incredibly obvious Sues. (obvious to everyone else, anyway) For people who have less obvious Sues-or-maybe-not-Sues, they’re pretty much useless. Still fun to run your favorite fandoms through them, though.

  33.  
    I enjoy characters that are morally gray. I also like characters that have to deal with tough situations, particularly war and death related. Yes I have a minor obsession with war.

    I think Complete Bastard is right that realistic motivations make a character more real. Real people are not usually selfless hero's like Eragon. Everyone is capable of selfless acts, but they have to find that side of themselves first. Real people are often unsure what they want, or have impure motivations. Sometimes the reasons they do things are shallow, sometimes the reasons are deep. Often they are influenced by something that happened recently, which can influence a 'good' person to do something bad. There are dozens of variables that can influence the way a person behaves. Each person responds differently to them. Good characters are the same way.
  34.  
    @Corsair: Never thought it was a work of brilliance, dear. Just thought I'd point it out that although you seemed to imply that Bella's clumsiness and plainness were "flaws," I (a) don't think that they are flaws and (b) don't believe they were dealt with appropriately. I was trying to agree with you, darnit! Again -- *shrug*

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