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    •  
      CommentAuthorKyllorac
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2013 edited
     

    Because the issue keeps coming up and it seriously needs to stop. Seriously. It has gone beyond ridiculous.

    Don’t expect me to be particularly nice in this because this whole issue annoys the heck out of me.

    Nossus has not been banned for one simple reason: he has not done anything ban-worthy since he was warned months ago. Four months ago, to be more precise. Since then, he has actually done nothing to deliberately provoke anyone unless first provoked.

    “But the Aspergers comment and fight in the It Has Happened thread!” I can hear some of you raring to type.

    Stop. Right there.

    I’m sure even Nossus will agree that he isn’t the most tactful person around, however, last I checked, a chronic lack of tact is not a deadly sin or crime, and it is most certainly not a bannable offense. What has been happening, as far as we moderators can see, is that Nossus makes a less-than-perfectly-tactful statement, and then others assume the worst possible intentions and go after him for it. And then there is argument as Nossus bites back which, while not the best course of action, is quite understandable in his case considering the open hostility of a fair part of the community.

    Before you protest, please recall the multiple PUBLIC questionings of why he hasn’t been banned yet. Think about how it would make you feel if you were their subject.

    Honestly, I wonder what it is that Nossus sees in our community that motivates him to stick around through all the hostility AND make the effort to learn to be more tactful.

    At this point, any issues with Nossus have less to do with Nossus and more to do with how people have been reacting to him, which is basically automatically assuming the worst of everything he says. This needs to stop.

    Next time you read one of Nossus’ posts, take a deep breath, let it out, and think about the least offensive way he could have meant it. Chalk any offense generated up to a lack of tact. Repeat process with all future posts until assuming the worst is no longer a gut reaction.

    For example, “Do you have Aspergers? That is a serious question and not an insult. You take everything so literally. I can’t help but think you’re either autistic or a very young child.”

    He asked whether or not the member was autistic, stating no intention to insult, and gave his reasons for thinking such. Asking is the most direct way to learn about someone and accommodate them, and providing reasoning helps avoid offending people too badly (usually). It was perhaps the worst possible way to ask about such a touchy topic, but there was no malice behind it.

    Long story short, I’m essentially asking everyone to take the time to cool down and think twice before posting replies to whatever Nossus says. We’re all reasonable, mature people here, when we bother to act like such.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2013
     

    TakuGifian likes this post. :thumbs up:

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2013
     

    I want to get this out of the way first: I was primarily in the wrong in that “It Has Happened” thread. Second: While I don’t like Nossus, I will accept the decision of the ruling party here, so to speak, but I’d like to throw in my opinion first. So:

    make the effort to learn to be more tactful.

    Where has he done this? Has it been going on behind the scenes? Because I can’t recall ever seeing an apology from him, or an admission of his behavior. Just in the It Has Happened thread he said that he doesn’t see issues with his behavior. As NeuroticPlatypus said there:

    See, but people keep reacting this way, so you should have some idea about what pushes people’s buttons by now and, you know, not intentionally push them.

    And yet he’s continued to do it. Since I had pointed to it as an example of trolling (though I’ve since realized that that would have been before his ban—sorry, I remember him disappearing for a few days after an earlier incident so I assumed that was when it was), I’m looking at the Discussing Discussing thread again. In it, I expressed my opinions, and he responded with “there’s your problem” to part of one of my sentences. That very clearly riled me up, and I said “I’m not even going to lie that I want this to come off as rude”. Yeah, not great. And then I made another post, in which I tried to articulate why I was irritated. Make something productive of it, because I wanted to resolve the issue. He responded with the very behavior I said I didn’t like. His response after that was to say that I was taking it too personally and that he didn’t mean it. He never responded to my response to that, but he got the message, right?

    Or not, if the It Has Happened thread is anything to go by. Because after he posted the “you must be autistic or very young” thing, I responded in what to me looks like the most calm post I had there. He responded by escalating it to the point where I actually took issue.

    So… where’s the change? In Discussing Discussing, he deliberately pushed my buttons. In It Has Happened, he escalated the situation. Interestingly, the reason he escalated the situation was because he was frustrated with me. Instead, however, we’re meant to not get frustrated with him. I said this same thing back in Minor Quibbles when it last escalated highest, since it was the same situation. It never got addressed, so maybe it will now?

    Next time you read one of Nossus’ posts, take a deep breath, let it out, and think about the least offensive way he could have meant it.

    I’ve been trying to do this, though I obviously failed in It Has Happened. I just wonder if he has been doing the same?

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2013
     

    Ugh. That was meant to be a lot less argumentative than it was. At this point I’m prepared to mostly ignore Nossus just to avoid drama, and the crux of what I meant to say was really that, probably since there’s been some private conversations with him, it feels as if there’s a double standard going on, and that he’s not visibly making much of an effort to do better, either. I think that got lost in the post, but trying to edit it now isn’t really going to do me much good.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2013
     

    Because I can’t recall ever seeing an apology from him

    You must have been sick that day

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2013
     

    You must have been sick that day

    I had a feeling something core to what I was saying would be wrong. Could you point me to that?

    •  
      CommentAuthorPryotra
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2013
     

    It was in the minor quibbles.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2013
     

    It was in the minor quibbles.

    Aha, I think I remember that. Let’s see… Found it!

    I would like to apologize, not just to Marquis De Carabas, but to the entire Asperger Community who I’m sure were deeply hurt by my comment. My intent has never been to harm anyone. There’s nothing wrong with having Asperger Syndrome. People with Asperger’s syndrome deserve respect, love and understanding. All men are created equal, it doesn’t matter if they’re gay or have aspergers, or if they’re black or brown or yellow or normal color- everyone deserves respect. I have not been showing the members of Impish Idea the respect they deserve and I apologize and hope that they forgive me for it.

    Less then a month later:

    I’m just so MAD that other people are wrong and I’m right!

    So… at least he sort of apologized?

    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2013
     

    I’m just so MAD that other people are wrong and I’m right!

    That was clearly sarcastic. Read the context.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2013
     

    Just in the It Has Happened thread he said that he doesn’t see issues with his behavior.

    No I didn’t.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2013
     

    That was clearly sarcastic.

    What does that change? Are you saying he wasn’t mocking me, he was just… pretending to mock me?

    No I didn’t.

    Pryotra said:

    I honestly don’t think that Nossus has any real idea of just how offensive he is.

    You said:

    I really don’t.

    How was I meant to interpret that?

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2013 edited
     

    Exactly as it says. That I don’t have any real idea of how offensive I am. That’s not even close to saying “I see no issue with my behavior.”

    •  
      CommentAuthorWiseWillow
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2013
     

    My entire response to this is: tone is really hard with text only. I thought the Asperger’s apology above was meant to be sarcastic :/

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2013
     

    That’s not even close to saying “I see no issue with my behavior.”

    My whole point is that your behavior is offensive. If you don’t see yourself as offensive, you don’t see an issue with your behavior, because your behavior is offensive.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2013
     

    My whole point is that your behavior is offensive. If you don’t see yourself as offensive, you don’t see an issue with your behavior, because your behavior is offensive.

    Ok but that’s not at all what you’re implying when you say “I don’t see an issue with my behavior.” That’s implying that I know I’m offensive and don’t care. What I actually said was that I don’t really know when or how or why I offend people.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2013 edited
     

    That’s implying that I know I’m offensive and don’t care. What I actually said was that I don’t really know when or how or why I offend people.

    Point taken. Sorry; I should have been more accurate to what you said.

  1.  

    What I actually said was that I don’t really know when or how or why I offend people.

    Protip: You need to learn.

    You know, Nossus, as far as my memory serves, the conversation that little Asperger’s quip of yours was in constitutes the first posts I’d ever seen from you. As some might be able to guess, that gave me a horrible first impression of you. However, this isn’t about me, and you probably don’t care about what I think of you, so let’s look at it from a different angle. Suppose somebody visits this forum for the first time, and that thread happens to be the first they look through. And that’s what they see; one of the members casually equating a disagreement/misunderstanding with Asperger’s and belittling and insulting the person who was doing the disagreeing. What do you think that person’s going to think of this forum, Nossus? Between you and me, I doubt it’d be flattering.

    So if you really, truly, honestly don’t get it, then you need to figure it out. Read a book on it if you have to, but figure it out.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2013
     

    Some things are obvious. Some things aren’t. I made a post recently that got deleted and the reason given was “some people here are easily offended.” I still don’t really see why it was a big deal.

  2.  

    Some things are obvious.

    You mean things like ‘don’t treat people like they’re beneath you just because they disagree?’ Yes, Nossus, calling someone a child for attempting to understand your point is treating them like they’re beneath you.

    Some things aren’t.

    So I say ‘you need to figure out basic manners because you’re making the rest of us look bad,’ and your response is basically to say ‘well it’s not obvious?’ Thanks for making my point for me!

    I made a post recently that got deleted and the reason given was “some people here are easily offended.”

    I was not there for that, and therefore can’t comment on it. If the mods deemed it so, then that’s their call.

    I still don’t really see why it was a big deal.

    Are you talking about the post that got deleted, or what I was actually talking about? If it’s the former, again, I can’t comment on it. If it’s the latter, maybe it has something to do with the fact that, again, you’re treating people like they’re beneath you? Someone else mentioned that tone is hard (at best) to figure out on the internet, and that’s true. However, when you make comments like the ones I mentioned, followed by what was basically an admission that you’re condescending, it’s really hard not to assume the tone is one of arrogant condescension. It also gives an impression that you know exactly what you’re doing, despite your claims, and are trolling us.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKyllorac
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    And this entire thread is a self-illustrating example of exactly what I am talking about.

    Disliking Nossus is one thing.

    Needling Nossus because of that dislike and generating drama is immature and petty.

    Nossus has not been banned because he has not done anything ban-worthy. He will not be banned unless he does.

    •  
      CommentAuthorWiseWillow
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    I am so very confused. (Not by you, Kyll, by the previous conversation)

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    generating drama

    I was under the impression that since this thread was not closed, and you did not say “end of discussion” at any point, that I was allowed to post my thoughts. So far this has been some of the most rational discussion I’ve seen from Nossus, so frankly I don’t care if you call it drama because I think it’s useful. I do not find “choose to find everything he says as nice” an acceptable solution to this situation because I do not think it is the people getting offended who are purely in the wrong. If you didn’t want me to disagree with what you said, you should not have allowed me to post.

    Nossus has not been banned because he has not done anything ban-worthy. He will not be banned unless he does.

    I have not argued in this thread that he should be banned. I have objected to the claim that he has been improving his behavior. I specifically mentioned that I was willing to accept whatever the mods decided, but I had points I wanted to raise. Points that I have raised before and that have not been addressed. If our behavior is expected to change, he needs to be held to the same standard, and I have not seen any mods ask him to do so.

    This post probably sounds irate. I feel irate, because I do not like raising points, trying to stress that I don’t want to be argumentative, and have everything I said be ignored and instead be told I’m generating drama. If Nossus deserves the benefit of the doubt, so do I.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    If our behavior is expected to change, he needs to be held to the same standard, and I have not seen any mods ask him to do so.

    That’s probably because it isn’t your business.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKyllorac
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    I do not find “choose to find everything he says as nice” an acceptable solution

    I said to assume the least offensive intentions and chalk any offense up to a lack of tact. That has nothing to do with seeing everything he says as “nice” and everything to do with taking a step back to look at things a bit more objectively before reacting. Reacting to every little not-nice thing anyone says by assuming the worst of them and treating them accordingly is not a smart thing to do.

    Also, what would you call conversations that involve nitpicking semantics, accusations, and assuming the worst of others’ intentions? Because that’s what a lot of the back-and-forth up there is.

    Your points have been addressed. Unfortunately, because they have not been addressed in the way you would like them to have been addressed, you are not seeing the results. Nossus’ behavior has improved, he has apologized, he has been held accountable for his actions, and none of the mods have allowed him to get away with anything. You need only look at the It Has Happened and Taku’s fantasy misconceptions threads to see evidence of the latter two.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    I am looking at things again and it looks like Swenson is a mod. I… had completely forgotten this, and knowing that Swenson is a mod alleviates a lot of the concerns I had.

    I said to assume the least offensive intentions and chalk any offense up to a lack of tact.

    I did not intend to misrepresent what you said. I presented in the wrong way, evidently, but I understood the gist.

    Also, what would you call conversations that involve nitpicking semantics, accusations, and assuming the worst of others’ intentions? Because that’s what a lot of the back-and-forth up there is.

    “Some things are obvious. Some things aren’t. I made a post recently that got deleted and the reason given was “some people here are easily offended.” I still don’t really see why it was a big deal.” This is some of the most I’ve seen from Nossus regarding his motivations other than Discussing Discussing, in which he said I take things too personally. Forgive me for not finding that a helpful sentiment coming right after him doing the very thing I asked him not to do. Unless that apology upthread is meant to be considered a definitive statement, but I was hardly able to discern what was genuine with that “normal colored” thing in there.

    I also think it should be noted that I started with a long post that raised multiple points, then made another trying to clarify that my main points were regarding the perceived double-standard and my not thinking Nossus has changed. These points do not nitpick semantics, and I strove to present them in a calm way so as to not make it accusatory. Any semantics-based nitpicking from there was because I was responding to Nossus and Puppet, who addressed small, semantics-based things.

    Finally, it seems that by those two sentences that you’re responding to my saying that this is some of the most rational discussion I’ve seen from Nossus?

    At this point I’m prepared to mostly ignore Nossus just to avoid drama, and the crux of what I meant to say was really that, probably since there’s been some private conversations with him, it feels as if there’s a double standard going on, and that he’s not visibly making much of an effort to do better, either.

    Like seriously, that’s so much drama. And it’s nitpicking and accusatory. Except no, because I was trying to be reasonable and I was trying to stress that I didn’t want to be argumentative. For all this talk of context and understanding what people are saying, it seems that even specifically saying what I am saying is not enough.

    he has been held accountable for his actions

    Realizing that Swenson is a mod shows this to be much more true than I thought it was.

    Where has he done this? Has it been going on behind the scenes?

    This was not answered.

    I have not seen any mods ask him to do so.

    This is untrue. I was wrong on this, and while I find it frustrating that nobody directly contradicted this sentiment, it’s my fault for being wrong in the first place.

    it feels as if there’s a double standard going on

    As it seems that I’ve misunderstood where this was addressed since it wasn’t in the way I wanted, and I cannot find it, where was this addressed? This probably makes it sound like I want you to do all the work for me, but I simply don’t get it and I want to.

    it feels as if he’s not visibly making much of an effort to do bette

    Same with this.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    I did not intend to misrepresent what you said.

    Do you wonder why you have to keep saying this? I mean, that;s the reason I was a dick to you last time.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013 edited
     

    Do you wonder why you have to keep saying this?

    I’ve only said it once.

    I mean, that;s the reason I was a dick to you last time.

    I didn’t misrepresent what you said, I misunderstood it. I believed that you meant “you kind of have to feel that way” in regards to “They believe that everything they create is perfect”, but then you said “It’s not about it being perfect” so I realized that was incorrect. Looking back, I don’t think it was right for me to say “It seems that what you initially said was not indicative of your views”, but I only said that because I interpreted you as responding to one part of what you quoted and not the other part. Given that you’ve never had an issue with quoting part of a sentence, I assumed you meant the whole and not the part.

    Unless there’s some third thing that I haven’t thought of here.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    The tone of my last two posts is probably very combative, because writing them I was feeling pretty angry, but I want to say that right now I am not feeling that at all. Most of my complaints are, like I said, alleviated by Swenson being a mod, and I think I understand where Nossus is coming from a lot better than I did before. I don’t like his behavior, but I think I will be able to do as this thread asks and not assume the worst. Heck, I’m all but prepared to delete that long post just to prevent any more responses to it because I’m not really feeling my arguments anymore.

    I don’t like a lot of the specifics of how this thread’s discussion has played out, but I have come to the right conclusion from it. It’s odd, because not much has really changed, but my hard feelings against Nossus have all but vanished. (Maybe it’s the glee from feeling satisfied with the character building I just did. I dunno.) I don’t expect him to have to feel the same towards me, of course.

    •  
      CommentAuthorWiseWillow
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    For pete’s sake, you two. Can we stop explaining the comedy of errors and skip ahead to the “hey, we both misunderstood each other, let’s start over” handshake? :)

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    For pete’s sake, you two. Can we stop explaining the comedy of errors and skip ahead to the “hey, we both misunderstood each other, let’s start over” handshake? :)

    Bleh, the joke I wanted to make doesn’t work so instead you get no joke. But yeah, I’m cool with this if Nossus is.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    I don’t expect him to have to feel the same towards me, of course.

    I don’t hold grudges.

  3.  

    hay guys whats goin on in this thraed

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013 edited
     

    I don’t hold grudges.

    There we go, then. :)

  4.  

    Can we close this thread now? I think it’s accomplished its purpose.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeMay 26th 2013
     

    @sansa – cool things, now that you’re here.

    @SWQ – yeah, I’m inclined to agree. If any other mods disagree, feel free to unlock it. :)