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    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2013 edited
     

    Yeah. Read about it here.

    To summarize the article linked, Amazon has gotten licenses from Warner Bros. for Gossip Girl, Pretty Little Liars, and Vampire Diaries, with more in the works. Fanfiction can be published for purchase in the Kindle store; so long as they’re over 10,000 words the writer will get 35% of the revenue. (Shorter works can apparently still be published like this, but the writer only gets about 20% of the money.)

    I just found out about this, so I haven’t really formulated my thoughts on it yet. I think it’s a good thing, though. It’s a major advance for proving the legality (and legitimacy) of fanfiction and it allows good fanfic authors to legally profit from their hard work. At the same time, I can only imagine what a sea of insanity the Kindle store is going to become if anybody and everybody can submit stuff…

    Although I suppose there’s already independent publishing through the Kindle store, so maybe I’m worrying about nothing.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPryotra
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2013
     

    You’re kidding me. You’re actually kidding me.

    I wonder if anime fanfic is going to be allowed to be published…

    <.<

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2013
     

    John Scalzi’s take on it. He’s less thrilled, he’s worried this means rights holders could freely borrow from fanfiction without compensating the writers further and that once you publish something through Amazon, you lose rights to it after that (so they could republish it as they like).

    So it looks like there’s a few perspectives on this topic.

  1.  

    ^ Rights can be tricky, it’s true.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2013
     

    This is obviously bad because all fan fiction is 100% bad period and I’m serious, if you write fan ficiton stop doing that.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2013 edited
     

    It’s not so much that it’s bad, Nossus, but that it encourages an unrealistic understanding of the publication process. It’s true that flooding the market with unedited drivel will not be a good thing, but the main problem for me will be that these people now expect to be called legitimate authors despite very few of them having any original content at all.

    Legally fanfiction walks a fine line, anyway. Most copyright laws have a loophole allowing fanfiction so long as it is not sold for profit by the writer, and all relevant disclaimers are made as to the copyright holder of the original work on which it is based, so selling fanfiction for profit by the writer, especially fanfiction that is not authorised or otherwise legitimised by the original author, can lead to all sorts of legal hassles.

    I would avoid it, personally. Too many legal tightropes, too few gatekeepers in terms of quality or content, too little fanfiction that is actually worth publishing.

    Besides, as much as Amy’s Baking Co. might claim that repackaging someone else’s content is a standard business practice, in the world of fiction-for-profit it just doesn’t cut it.

    EDIT: I seem to have missed the clause “for certain properties owned by Alloy Entertainment”, which means that the legal issues mentioned above are not necessarily relevant. Still, it does present the possibility of opening the floodgates.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2013
     

    As someone who’s read some very good fan fiction… I really don’t think much good will come from this. I simply can’t think of a single fan fic that could be worth money, even small amounts through a digital service, and I feel like this will create more animosity than anything else—those opposed to fan fiction go “hey, look, they’re getting paid to ape stories!” while those who support it feel resentment for those who get paid/simply don’t care. Not to mention that these are teen shows—and as much as I try not to mindlessly hate on teenage girls, I really don’t think stories that are mostly written for the writer are going to either legitimize fan fiction or warrant payment.

  2.  

    All three of those shows based on books anyway. That makes it worse for me because the authors of those books (regardless of how good or bad the final products are) had to work hard to create those worlds and those stories and characters. They had to work hard to get published. I don’t think that people should be professionally recognized and paid for writing about other peoples’ characters and worlds, regardless of the quality of the fanfiction. I do see that the original creators will be paid in this case and that they seem to be okay with this, but I still don’t like it much. It seems like it sets a bad precedent. Extended universe stuff is a bit different (like all those Star Trek books or even novelizations of films) because they are not already established written series, so it is bringing the content to a new medium and adapting it, like making a film or television adaptation of a book.

    Legitimizing fanfiction in those worlds seems to take something away from the actual canon stories that the authors write. I’m sure most fans would still by the “real” books even if the fanfiction is cheaper, but still. I don’t have a problem with fanfiction. I think it’s fine to do for fun (I tried it once, and it wasn’t really my thing, but others seem to enjoy it). I don’t even mind it being published online (for free) for others to enjoy. I do think it’s possible to write good fanfiction, but it’s still not totally yours. If you are indeed a good writer, try writing something original if you want real recognition. As far as fanfiction goes, I think that it’s fine for sharing with others and even for praising/criticizing among fans, but that’s as far as the recognition should go. You may write the Snape/Hermione fic to end all Snape/Hermione fics, but that doesn’t put you on par with J.K. Rowling, and you should not get financial compensation for it (somewhat unrelated/extreme example, I know).

    I would feel a little differently if these particular shows were not already book series. But even then, I think there should be more an extended universe authors recruitment thing rather than a “let’s all publish fanfiction” thing.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2013 edited
     

    That makes it worse for me because the authors of those books (regardless of how good or bad the final products are) had to work hard to create those worlds and those stories and characters. They had to work hard to get published.

    But then again the authors or those books chose to sell the rights to adaptations and probably various other things that apparently include fan fiction. And probably got a truckload of money for it too.

    edit: and let’s be honest, they some people have to work harder than others on those things. I didn’t know that Gossip Girls was based on a book series but upon discovering that I’m almost certain that the books are shit

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2013
     

    Extended universe stuff is a bit different (like all those Star Trek books or even novelizations of films) because they are not already established written series, so it is bringing the content to a new medium and adapting it, like making a film or television adaptation of a book.

    The point about it being a different medium is a good one, but I still go back to my old example of superhero comics—many people have written in comic book universes, and I don’t think anybody thinks Batman: Year One is any less an excellent piece of writing simply because it was based on something that came before. So long as it’s bringing something new to the table, I don’t see why fanfiction is any different from this, other than it being less professional.

  3.  

    Okay, having taken the time to look through the article and related items, here’s my two cents:

    At the same time, I can only imagine what a sea of insanity the Kindle store is going to become if anybody and everybody can submit stuff…

    Everybody and anybody already can submit stuff. It’ll be taken down if it violates the guidelines (as is the case with Kindle worlds, just with additional guidelines from the rights-holders as well as Amazon’s own), but they can submit it.

    I wonder if anime fanfic is going to be allowed to be published…

    Personally, I wonder if video game companies will hop on the bandwagon (assuming this first run is successful, anyway). Mostly because I have friends who write video game fanfic, but still, it could be interesting.

    He’s less thrilled, he’s worried this means rights holders could freely borrow from fanfiction without compensating the writers further

    How is that different from a tie-in? From what I’ve seen on the subject, the same thing happens there, you just get an advance (and absolutely nothing else until the book/books earn out. If they earn out).

    and that once you publish something through Amazon, you lose rights to it after that (so they could republish it as they like).

    For the life of the contract, yes. There’s not really much that can be said on that until we find out what’s in said contract as far as when it can be ended. With a fair number of publishing companies 1, though, that’s standard, and often those contracts are a b!#%^ to end early (where ‘early’ is often before you die).

    the main problem for me will be that these people now expect to be called legitimate authors despite very few of them having any original content at all.

    I’m torn here. On the one hand, if they’re good enough for Amazon and the rights-holders to allow their work in their program and for said work to earn them money, how exactly aren’t they ‘legitimate’? Again, it’s pretty much tie-in writing, just with the writers offering stuff instead of being hired ahead of time. It’s probably partly because I guess I’m squeamish about the term ‘legitimate author’; what qualifies one as such? Is it just creating original content? If so, I may already be a legitimate author despite never having published anything (yay me! :D). Is it being taken on by a publishing company? What about those people who make tons of money on their original content by self-publishing? Is it making a certain amount or more over a certain time period? If so, what amount and time period, and what’s stopping the fanfic in the Kindle Worlds program from qualifying?

    On the other hand, there’s a chance that at least some the writers involved (or even those that aren’t involved due their work not fitting the guidelines) might let this go to their heads. Granted, this is true for anyone, and it’s too early to tell, but it’d be a shame if this program proved to be worthwhile, but died (or caused problems with fanfic in general) because too many people got a bad case of the stupid. But either way, I guess we’ll all just have to cross that bridge when we get to it.

    Besides, as much as Amy’s Baking Co. might claim that repackaging someone else’s content is a standard business practice, in the world of fiction-for-profit it just doesn’t cut it.

    Yes it does. Leaving aside the obvious, how often does one form of media get repackaged into another? Only all the time. And it’s been going on forever. We have video games based on tv shows based on movies based on comics based on who-knows-what else. Even some webcomics have radio dramas based on them now.

    I simply can’t think of a single fan fic that could be worth money, even small amounts through a digital service

    I… will get to this in my final thoughts.

    and I feel like this will create more animosity than anything else—those opposed to fan fiction go “hey, look, they’re getting paid to ape stories!”

    Those opposed can think what they want. Let them explain the elephant in the room.

    while those who support it feel resentment for those who get paid/simply don’t care.

    Why? Apathy I can see, though not quite so much in the case of someone who supposedly supports it, but why resentment? Do you get resentful when someone you’re a fan of is rewarded? Or when something you care about is recognized? If so, why are you a fan? Why do you care about it?

    Not to mention that these are teen shows—and as much as I try not to mindlessly hate on teenage girls, I really don’t think stories that are mostly written for the writer are going to either legitimize fan fiction or warrant payment.

    Well, yes, but at the same time, I’m not sure stories written mostly for the writer are likely to qualify. Amazon’s guidelines give me the impression that they want works from people who take this seriously, and the guidelines from the makers of the original content will hopefully assist with that. Sadly, this does mean that the greatest fic of all time will not be allowed in, but that’s a price we’ll just have to pay.

    Okay, final thoughts time:

    Honestly, I’m kind of looking forward to see what details emerge in the near future. I don’t write fanfic myself, but as I mentioned, I do have friends who write it (if for different fandoms than the ones already with Kindle Worlds, but we’ll see what happens), and if they were to offer their work to the program and be accepted I would be happy for them. If this turns out well, at any rate. There are probably going to be a lot of wrinkles that need ironing out, but Amazon’s shown themselves to be capable of getting their innovations to work and work well, so I have pretty high hopes on that front.

    It seems to me (as if I didn’t make that obvious enough by now) that this is pretty much just Amazon’s approach to tie-in writing. The terms we know about thus far seem to be similar in various ways to what’s standard, but with some terms from the self-publishing platform thrown in (such as the lack of advance plus the 35% royalty rate 2; that’s pretty normal for KDP as I understand it 3).

    My biggest worry with this is similar to Soupnazi’s, if perhaps for different reasons. Fanfic readers are used to being able to read fanfic for free, and while one to four dollars isn’t bank-breaking, they might at least hesitate. However, even if that does happen, it might simply mean that the works find a new audience who is more than willing to pay. If that’s how it works out, fanfic writers could actually benefit most by leaving most of their writing free on ff.net or something and only putting a few of their works into Kindle Worlds as advertising that actually makes them money.

    But in the end, we’ll just have to wait and see what happens.

    1 – I should probably note that it’s generally novels that have to deal with this. It’s my understanding and experience that the terms of, say, short story magazines are generally more fair in terms of who gets to do what for how long.

    2 – Yes, I saw the bit about very short works making a smaller royalty. But they justify it, and while I haven’t been able to find percentages for regular tie-ins, I’m willing to believe that it’s typically lower than 20% of cover price until I see evidence to the contrary.

    3 – There are certain conditions under which Kindle Direct Publishing gives up to 70%, but with that program the person getting that amount is (hopefully!) the rights-holder.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2013
     

    the greatest fic of all time

    Slight derail, but I must say that was glorious. And chagrin-y.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2013
     

    Why? Apathy I can see, though not quite so much in the case of someone who supposedly supports it, but why resentment? Do you get resentful when someone you’re a fan of is rewarded? Or when something you care about is recognized? If so, why are you a fan? Why do you care about it?

    I’m thinking of the people who would be irritated that their fan fiction can’t be sold where others’ can. But if there are strict restrictions on what can be sold, then the people who would complain about that wouldn’t be the ones writing fan fiction that could be sold… so it’s not really a good point. XD

  4.  

    But then again the authors or those books chose to sell the rights to adaptations and probably various other things that apparently include fan fiction. And probably got a truckload of money for it too.

    The point about it being a different medium is a good one, but I still go back to my old example of superhero comics—many people have written in comic book universes, and I don’t think anybody thinks Batman: Year One is any less an excellent piece of writing simply because it was based on something that came before. So long as it’s bringing something new to the table, I don’t see why fanfiction is any different from this, other than it being less professional.

    I guess I can see both of these points. I don’t know that much about fanfiction to be honest. Just the idea of getting paid to write about worlds that you didn’t create is… unsettling to me for some reason. With comic books, that happens a lot right? I would view that more like a movie or a TV show where it’s a collaborative effort between many creators/writers, whereas novels/stories tend to be written by one author (possibly two), so having new people jump in seems off to me. Though, on Nossus’s point, if the authors do agree to sell the rights for things like this and are being compensated, I guess it’s alright. It just seems to lack some kind of integrity, but so does a lot of the self-published stuff that’s already allowed in the Kindle store.

    edit: and let’s be honest, they some people have to work harder than others on those things. I didn’t know that Gossip Girls was based on a book series but upon discovering that I’m almost certain that the books are shit

    I don’t doubt that, but it’s still shit that the author had to come up with instead of shit that someone else enjoys reading and then decided to write other stories about. Anyway, I think my opinion is somewhat revised, though I feel like self-published Kindle fanfiction is perhaps slightly lower on the writing ladder than self-published original fiction.

  5.  

    Fanfiction is not so very different from Star Wars EU books and other tie-ins, in my opinion. But I think this Amazon model may cause a serious shift in the way that those tie-in writers are used. It’s a smart move for the business end- there are so many untapped resources for them in fanfiction. But I think with the sheer volume of fanfiction authors, tie-in writers will become much, much less valuable, and will be treated accordingly. That’s my two cents.

  6.  

    I don’t know that much about fanfiction to be honest. Just the idea of getting paid to write about worlds that you didn’t create is… unsettling to me for some reason. With comic books, that happens a lot right? I would view that more like a movie or a TV show where it’s a collaborative effort between many creators/writers, whereas novels/stories tend to be written by one author (possibly two), so having new people jump in seems off to me.

    That happens even in books, just less often. Sometimes other people pick up writing in a setting or series after the author’s death, things like that. And then you have ghost writing and so on…

    I do see where you’re coming from, though. It’s part of the reason I don’t personally write fanfic; I’d be constantly terrified of getting something about this other person’s characters or world wrong. But that’s me. [shrugs]

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2013
     

    ^^ that’s the reason why there are a very limited number of fandoms I can write fanfiction for. I have extremely specific requirements: the original work must not be too self-contained (or else there’s no place for my story), it can’t be too well-written (or else I feel like it’s blasphemy to add to it), and it can’t be too terrible (or else I don’t want to think about it). And I must also be interested in it. So far, this has limited my fanfiction writing to… basically just Mass Effect and (formerly) Eragon.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2013
     

    Fanfiction is not so very different from Star Wars EU books and other tie-ins, in my opinion.

    And I totally think Star Wars expanded universe stuff is garbage too. From what I’ve seen of it at least.

  7.  

    I think that there is enough wrong with the original universe that I’m not opposed to people fiddling with it.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2013
     

    You must not’ve seen that Cracked article…

  8.  

    ...which Cracked article?

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2013
     

    http://www.cracked.com/article/167_5-reasons-star-wars-sequels-would-be-worse-than-prequels/

    Most of this talks about how fucking awful the EU is.

  9.  

    Insert joke about how with Paradise Lost they’ve been publishing fanfiction for years.

    Anyway, large franchises have expanded universe novels published all the time. (I’ve reviewed the SPN ones for example) So… eh, not yet the end of civilization.