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    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2013 edited
     

    You know how in response to “you should publish a book before criticising Paolini/Meyer/Tesch etc” many of us use the argument “you don’t need to be a chef to know when the food tastes bad”...?

    I think we can no longer use that simile. It has been disproven by Amy’s Baking Co., where if you don’t like their AMAZING [sic] food, it’s because you don’t know what real food tastes like. Or you’re just a hater, or an internet troll, or from “the ‘Competition’ [sic]” trying to discredit them.

    Check them out on Kitchen Nightmares, if you haven’t seen it already. And read some of the YELP reviews.

    What do you guys think? Are self-delusional narcissists just drawn to particular careers/forms of creative expression, or are there people like this all over the place? If the former, what is it about cooking and writing that draws them?

    Most importantly, what metaphor/simile can we use to argue against fans of bad writing now ?

    ETA: I will admit the behaviour of the Yelp reviewers is pretty low, I don’t understand the idea of reviewing a place you’ve never been to (or a book you’ve never read), but the behaviour of the owners is just as bad, accusing every one of their earlier reviewers of lying and (perhaps rightly) dismissing the rest as trolls and haters. I’m getting a strong recollection of the early days of Gloria Tesch, utterly convinced of her own superiority, blind and deaf to anything that isn’t glowing praise, and willing/stupid enough to fight about it on the internet.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2013
     

    Meh. It’s pretty obvious that Amy has some serious mental issues.

    While we’re pretending to be serious here, people like Amy enjoy writing and cooking because it allows them to channel their creativity into, you guessed it, creating something. The problem is that certain people like Amy simply can’t handle criticism. They believe that everything they create is perfect, and that other people simply don’t understand or appreciate it. This can sometimes be the case when it comes to art or writing (who knows, maybe Maradonia has a super secret meaning and its simply going over our heads, guyz), but when it comes to food I think Mr. Ramsay summed it up quite nicely:

    “IT’S FUCKING RAAAAWWWWWWWW”

    •  
      CommentAuthorlilyWhite
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2013
     

    They’re pretty much just plain delusional, and apparently unable to acknowledge or accept something that they said on national television, based on this quote from their Facebook page:

    The owners will likely be holding a press conference before the Grand Re-Opening and answer falsehoods depicted on a reality television show, including assertions that the restaurant confiscates tips from servers.

    Why do people think they take servers’ tips? Because the owners themselves said so on Kitchen Nightmares.

    They also make this claim…

    In fact, wait staff is paid $8-$14 per hour, two and half to nearly five times the standard hourly wage for servers.

    ...when ten seconds on Google reveals that minimum wage for tipped employees is $4.80.

    So they definitely are a lot like Gloria Tesch or Robert Stanek: they make a ton of claims despite the extreme ease of disproving these claims on the very medium they are expressing them via (the internet). And like Stanek, they’re convinced that they’re successful people whose negative reception is the sole result of being targeted by bullies who favour other creators.

    Quite a spectacular trainwreck, really. I wonder how their “Grand Re-Opening” will go…and if Weird Al will write a song about them. Because that would be awesome.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2013
     

    The problem is that certain people like Amy simply can’t handle criticism. They believe that everything they create is perfect, and that other people simply don’t understand or appreciate it.

    If you’re an artist you kind of have to feel that way. I mean sure, you can take some advice from people, but is it their art or yours?

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2013
     

    There’s a difference between carefully considering and ultimately choosing to reject criticism, and wildly flailing about in anger any time someone says something remotely mean, though. I agree there’s a fine line to walk and many great artists were only vindicated by history, but there’s still stuff out there that nobody in any time period has ever thought was good. So at a certain point you have to self-examine and ask whether or not the critics are right.

    This may be totally off-base, but I’m inclined to think that the reason so many bad artists flip out when they hear criticism is because inside, they know their work has flaws, but they just refuse to accept it—so when somebody else notices, they try to pretend there’s nothing wrong all the harder. Do actually good artists react like this to criticism? Again, maybe I just don’t know enough about artists, but it seems like most of them are more confident in their own abilities. They don’t freak out when people dislike them because they know they’re good enough, right?

    Or maybe that attitude is in the bad artists too, and we just don’t hear about it because they don’t make a scene.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2013
     

    but there’s still stuff out there that nobody in any time period has ever thought was good.

    But this thread isn’t about any of them. Many, many. many people think Chris Paolini and Stephanie Meyer and that other person are really good.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2013
     

    That’s a different level from Tesch and Stanek, though. I don’t know where oblivious bad-but-not-nearly-that-bad artists fall into my theory.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2013
     

    If you’re an artist you kind of have to feel that way.

    What, that everything you make is perfect? That’s just going to lead to disaster. Only by accepting and understanding criticism can we improve, and nobody starts out perfect.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013 edited
     

    What, that everything you make is perfect? That’s just going to lead to disaster. Only by accepting and understanding criticism can we improve, and nobody starts out perfect.

    If you don’t believe in what you’re doing, neither will anyone else. And the best artists have a vision and they see it through regardless of what anyone else thinks.

    I do not think any of the artists mentioned in this thread have done the above though.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013
     

    If you don’t believe in what you’re doing, neither will anyone else.

    There’s a large difference between believing in what one is doing and believing that what one is doing is perfect and needs no changing. If you can’t understand that very simply difference this conversation is not going to go anywhere.

    And the best artists have a vision and they see it through regardless of what anyone else thinks.

    Such as? Name me one artist who started out perfect and never required critique. Unless you mean that an artist should magically know when they’re perfect and stop taking criticism at that point?

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013 edited
     

    There’s a large difference between believing in what one is doing and believing that what one is doing is perfect and needs no changing. If you can’t understand that very simply difference this conversation is not going to go anywhere.

    It’s not about it being perfect, it’s about it being the way you want it to be.

    Such as? Name me one artist who started out perfect and never required critique. Unless you mean that an artist should magically know when they’re perfect and stop taking criticism at that point?

    If you’re at the point where your art is reaching a large audience (ie, your book is being published, your paintings are being sold, your album is released) you should already be past that point because you’re a (semi- at least) professional. While EVERYONE can improve, everyone that’s been mentioned in this thread so far is already at the point where they don’t need to worry about that. They need to evolve, not improve. Whether or not you think Paolini or Meyer are good doesn’t matter because they’re already professional artists. I sort of agree with the people that say that you need to have done it to tell people how to do it. I’m in no position to tell either of them what to do, even though I don’t personally like their books. I mean, they must be doing something right that I’m not. Their books are touching millions of people and that’s all that matters. That’s the point of art. They’re moving people.

    If you’re still at the level that everyone at this site is at, then sure, you should take advice from people and see how you can improve because you’re probably not that good yet. But like I said earlier, that doesn’t necessarily matter.

    Like swenson said, ‘many great artists were only vindicated by history.’ You’ve got obvious people like Van Gogh, and you have less obvious people like motherfucking Elvis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis

    Not long after, he failed an audition for a local vocal quartet, the Songfellows. He explained to his father, “They told me I couldn’t sing.”[44] Songfellow Jim Hamill later claimed that he was turned down because he did not demonstrate an ear for harmony at the time.[45] In April, Presley began working for the Crown Electric company as a truck driver.[46] His friend Ronnie Smith, after playing a few local gigs with him, suggested he contact Eddie Bond, leader of Smith’s professional band, which had an opening for a vocalist. Bond rejected him after a tryout, advising Presley to stick to truck driving “because you’re never going to make it as a singer.”[47]

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013
     

    It’s not about it being perfect, it’s about it being the way you want it to be.

    Erm

    They believe that everything they create is perfect, and that other people simply don’t understand or appreciate it.

    If you’re an artist you kind of have to feel that way. I mean sure, you can take some advice from people, but is it their art or yours?

    It seems that what you initially said was not indicative of your views, so there’s not much point in me arguing against something I never intended to disagree with. Sorry!

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013 edited
     

    If it’s the way you want it to be, then it’s about as perfect as you can make it. You’re making art. Say what you have to say.

    Of course that rarely works in practice. Leonardo da Vinci said ‘art is never finished, only abandoned.’

    Also, what I said WAS indicative of my views. Do you have Aspergers? That is a serious question and not an insult. You take everything so literally. I can’t help but think you’re either autistic or a very young child.

  1.  

    Do you have Aspergers? That is a serious question and not an insult. You take everything so literally. I can’t help but think you’re either autistic or a very young child.

    This kind of stuff is really not necessary, especially when Soupnazi basically agreed with you after you had fully explained your point. It is hard to gauge tone, etc. on the internet. People taking you too literally does not necessitate asking them what they “have” or how old they are.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013 edited
     

    If it’s the way you want it to be, then it’s about as perfect as you can make it.

    I disagree. I view perfection in art as coming from a more objective plane. Assuming that I must be very young, or have Aspergers, in order to have a differing viewpoint that led to a misunderstanding of your meaning is ridiculous. Not to mention that a person’s mental status or age is irrelevant to this sort of discourse.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013 edited
     

    I disagree. I view perfection in art as coming from a more objective plane.

    Well that’s just impossible and absurd. But then again you’re only a wee lad.

  2.  

    But then again you’re only a wee lad.

    Again, not necessary.

    •  
      CommentAuthorWiseWillow
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013
     

    Nossus. He wanted further explanation, and still disagrees with you on some points, while now agreeing on others. Don’t be so obnoxious.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013 edited
     

    Well that’s just impossible and absurd. But then again you’re only a wee lad.

    See, the thing I find very interesting about you is that you know that this behavior tends to anger me and yet you keep doing it. Interestingly enough, the definition of an internet troll is someone who purposefully posts inflammatory messages. Given that your response to me expressing my dislike of your behavior is to respond with that very behavior, I’m rather confused as to why you haven’t been banned. Unless this forum is even more lax than I thought and trolling is okay.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPryotra
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013 edited
     

    I believe Shy said something about his being on his last chance a while back, when he made a comment similar to this one. I might be wrong though, it’s been a while.

    I honestly don’t think that Nossus has any real idea of just how offensive he is.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013
     

    I honestly don’t think that Nossus has any real idea of just how offensive he is.

    I really don’t.

  3.  

    See, but people keep reacting this way, so you should have some idea about what pushes people’s buttons by now and, you know, not intentionally push them.

    Calling someone a child for disagreeing with you or not understanding your point is insulting and pushes buttons. This should be fairly obvious. People are typically civil to one another here, so what is “normal” on most of the internet (like insulting people who disagree with you) is rather looked down upon here.

    This debate was fine until the Aspergers/young child comment followed by the wee lad bit. Those were the inflammatory parts (in my opinion). The rest was pretty civil.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013 edited
     

    It wasn’t just that he disagreed with me. He has a history of completely missing the point every time I try to discuss anything with him. I mean, a sentence is more than the sum of its parts. I don’t think he fully understands that.

    edit: also if anyone was being condescending and dickish it was him. he said this:

    If you can’t understand that very simply difference this conversation is not going to go anywhere.

    This is almost always what happens. People try to be condescending and dickish toward me and I am just so much better at it than they are that I come off as the bad guy

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013
     

    He has a history of completely missing the point every time I try to discuss anything with him.

    See, the way I view it is that you start from the standpoint that you’re right and everyone else understands that, thus not bothering to actually explain your thoughts in a manner that doesn’t contradict itself. I fail to see how it’s my fault for not realizing you meant a word to be defined using your own perspective and not its definition.

    You are right in that my quoted sentence was a rather rude sentiment that didn’t need to be brought up. I’m sorry about that; I should not have done it.

    However, it is you who crossed the line into asserting that I had to be very young in order to be saying the things I was saying. If I say something that you don’t like, you are free to point it out and I can apologize. Escalating the situation by insulting me is not constructive in the least, and it is your fault, not the fault of others, that you choose to handle things in the way you do. I mean, you yourself argued that I was taking things too personally when I expressed displeasure with your behavior; surely you’re then capable of dismissing a bit of rudeness?

    People try to be condescending and dickish toward me and I am just so much better at it than they are that I come off as the bad guy

    I know, I know, I’m being too literal, I can’t understand the sentiment of your message… but, um, you are saying here that you’re better at being rude than others. If that’s so, is it any wonder that you come off as the bad guy?

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013 edited
     

    I fail to see how it’s my fault for not realizing you meant a word to be defined using your own perspective and not its definition.

    Of course you do. Just how you fail to see all of the content of my messages.

    I have a hypothesis that the reason you (and several others on this site) do this is that you’ve read too many ‘sporks.’ Notice how swenson actually gave a legit reply.

    surely you’re then capable of dismissing a bit of rudeness?

    I did, at first. When you continued to be completely obtuse I upped the ante.

    If that’s so, is it any wonder that you come off as the bad guy?

    I never wondered.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2013
     

    Another interesting thing is how it seems that after a few messages between each other, you start randomly picking into a single sentence or half sentence of my posts. While mine get longer, yours get shorter.

    I think that we’ve gotten to the point in this discussion where I’m not going to be able to say anything without you dismissing most of it, and I don’t enjoy allowing someone else to decide the talking points by ignoring large chunks of what I’m saying, so I’ll step back now and let mods decide the outcome of this.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2013
     

    When you continued to be completely obtuse I upped the ante

    And that right there is the problem. Don’t up the ante. If you have a problem with someone, work it out in a civil manner or ask a mod to step in. It is not that difficult to not stoop to insults.

    •  
      CommentAuthorFalling
    • CommentTimeMay 27th 2013
     

    Chiming in a bit late, but geez this Amy’s Baking Co is a train wreck. I don’t know if creative artforms attract narcissistic people, but I suspect these sorts of people wind up finding self-employment as I don’t know that they could work with anyone.

    Very sad incident. But I 100% believe that being able to deal with criticism correctly, self-analysing, filtering and weighting are all necessary to bettering your own art.

    • CommentAuthorNossus
    • CommentTimeMay 27th 2013
     

    You should be constantly trying to better yourself (in EVERY aspect of your life), you shouldn’t need people telling you you suck to get you to do that. Sometimes it’s motivational and sometimes it isn’t.

    And I know someone’s going to come in and say “there’s a difference between insults and criticism!” but this site is founded on insults, plain and simple.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPryotra
    • CommentTimeMay 27th 2013
     

    you shouldn’t need people telling you you suck to get you to do that.

    You’re right. That’s why it’s irritating when people don’t improve unless you tell them that what they’re doing stinks, and they think they’re just SO GOOD that no one else understands their greatness.

    •  
      CommentAuthorThea
    • CommentTimeMay 27th 2013
     

    I don’t know that the creative types are more likely to be that arrogant and disconnected from reality, but culturally, we do tend to make ourselves victims before accepting any criticism, which I think is unfortunate for everyone. Because no level of criticism is acceptable.

    People won’t be able to make a living with their art if they’re bad at it, regardless of whether anyone tells them so, and with the internet and self-publishing, especially, if they have the money anymore they can share what they make even if no one likes it. Before they never would have had the chance to share it before.