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    • CommentAuthorSlyShy
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     

    Dear Imps,

    For those of you I haven’t had the chance to meet and interact with, I’m Matthias Bundai. I started II to improve writing through criticism. Now that a few years have passed I wish to, with your permission, reshape the site.

    I have concerns I will raise in order of importance. Then I will explain my proposal and how it addresses my concerns.

    Sustainability

    As you may know II has been advertisement free. One incarnation of the forum briefly showed ads. Philosophically I am opposed to advertisements, so I view them as entirely out of the question as way of sustaining II. That said, I don’t want to finance II. Nor do I want member contributions to finance II. II is here for you to enjoy, free of charge.

    I don’t want to continue financing II myself because I want II to have room to grow in size independent of my budget. Right now II runs on servers I can afford, not necessarily servers that meet its current or future demands.

    Accessibility, Complexity, and Speed

    I’ve come to strongly believe that a website should be human readable in any form. This includes just reading the source code without a browser. There are currently some website that meet that standard. II is not one of them. The great thing about readable HTML markup is that it doesn’t take much styling (CSS) to make it readable in a browser.

    I want to avoid a trend I’ve noticed in many websites of increased complexity (which results in less readable source code) and slower loading times. Most websites these days load many JavaScript files that make small cosmetic enhancements. In my opinion, those cosmetics are not worth it. The more complicated a website is, the slower it will load. I’ve been very proud of how fast II loads, but I want to make it even faster.

    Cosmetic enhancements also cost bandwidth. I’ve lived in the US where internet access is relatively cheap and easy to come by, but for someone living in a country with limited internet access loading a 14 kilobyte website (II main page currently) is much better than loading a 143 kilobyte website.

    If you ever want to have your mind blown, compare the source code of II’s homepage to that of HuffingtonPost.

    Community Involvement

    I would like II to be run by the community. Currently its internal workings are complicated, so there is a barrier to contribution. I would like to simplify the operation of II enough (and write great explanations of the process) so that new and old members alike can contribute.

    Proposal

    I plan to strip II down to the bare-bones and use Readability for cosmetics. This offloads the complexity of presentation to Readability, allowing II to be fast. And Readability generates some amount of income.

    Monetary operation of II

    If II makes money I promise that it will reinvested into II. This is how I believe a non-profit should be run, and I intend to run II as a non-profit. I don’t think it would be fair if any single person profited from the work done by the community. Certainly I should not seek monetary gain from the articles that you have written.

    • CommentAuthorSlyShy
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     

    I forgot to mention the purpose of this post: I would like your comments, and criticism, and consent!

    •  
      CommentAuthorInkblot
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     

    This site has done a great deal for me and I’d be honored to assist (chiefly looking at the Community Involvement section). If you have anything more concrete than that goal I’d love to hear it. What, precisely, will II members be doing? Coding, drafting, proofing, updating? Server-side stuff? I confess that I don’t know too much about it but I’d be willing to learn.

    I like the clean, simple theme of the website, and I really do appreciate and have noticed the fast loading times, so props for your decision and accomplishment there.

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     

    I… don’t actually know what you’re proposing? That you’re going to make the website simpler? Sure, I’m cool with that—just as long as the basic format and color scheme stay the same, I’d assume II will still look nice (and even if it doesn’t, tough, right?).

  1.  

    Frankly, I am also slightly confused by your post, SlyShy. Would you be able to give me a pointed summary? I gathered about as much as SoupNazi did. Also, I am confused by the lack of eating Irish babies in this thread.

    I’d also like to second Inkblot- this website IS incredibly clean, readable, and altogether gorgeous.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKyllorac
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012 edited
     

    I’m a bit confused with how II is going to finance itself without ads or member contributions (unless that’s all covered by Readability). Otherwise, I’m all for it. Especially the simplified HTML and culling of Javascript.

    And if you need someone to help with the coding, I’d be more than happy to volunteer. I haven’t done any serious coding in a while, but back in the day, I coded more than a couple of websites from scratch, so I know my way around HTML, CSS, and a bit of Javascript.

    —-

    I just remembered one thing:

    One thing that’s always annoyed me about the article editor is how you can only edit things in Textile, even though there’s an HTML tab. I would love (love love) it there were the option to edit articles in HTML since sometimes the Textile doesn’t nest properly.

  2.  

    I don’t really get what you mean to do either, but I’m sure whatever you do will be fine since you already created a really clean and nicely formatted site (this is by far the best-looking forum layout I have ever seen). It also really does load incredibly fast. I don’t get how you can make money without ads of contributions either, but if there’s a way, go for it.

    •  
      CommentAuthorFalling
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012 edited
     

    I hope this means there will be a better way to quote people? That’s the one thing I’ve found a nuisance on here. Fortunately @ kinda highlights things for me.

    I personally don’t see the big deal with something like a sidebar ad. The other two websites I hang out on have gone through this transition: Shamus Young and Team Liquid. There are irritating ads to be sure, but just a regular old sidebar ad (and maybe a banner) is pretty muted. And I think Shamus blocked all the irritating online dating ads. (And this is coming from someone that switched to firefox to use their adblock because I was irritated at all the ads- pop-ups, sound ads and the like. But for TL and Shamus, I’ll unblock. I’ve thought about using a no-script plug-in, except it blocks those two’s ads.)

    But if it’s a philosophical position, then that’s just the way it is.

    • CommentAuthorSlyShy
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     

    Basically, I’m changing the site layout. The site will look a little more low-fi and retro, but will be easier to read and faster loading, and simpler to use.

    I’m proposing that I make everything better. lol

    Readability users appropriate a portion of their membership fee to websites they visit, so ImpishIdea would get a share of that.

  3.  

    Readability users appropriate a portion of their membership fee to websites they visit, so ImpishIdea would get a share of that.

    But we, as members, wouldn’t have to pay?

    The site will look a little more low-fi and retro, but will be easier to read and faster loading, and simpler to use.

    II was never very flashy anyway. I like simplicity and speed.

    •  
      CommentAuthorFalling
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     

    I do like simplicity and speed as well as long as it comes with functionality. Some forums can get WAY too cluttered. And I really hate black- IF is always a real headache to read.

    • CommentAuthorSlyShy
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     

    How could functionality ever come without simplicity and speed? ;)

    • CommentAuthorSlyShy
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     

    I really recommend everyone read Readability’s Website. They can answer your questions better than I can.

    • CommentAuthorRocky
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     
    Better still, download it and give it a whirl.

    Is Readability going to be the overall foundation for the future II? There are quite a few questions about simplicity, speed, and community involvement, and I'm wondering if all that is just going to stem from that.
    • CommentAuthorSlyShy
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     

    The simplicity and community involvement won’t stem from Readability directly. Just the sustainability will.

    I’m going to working on improvements to the site that make community involvement easier.

    •  
      CommentAuthorFalling
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012
     

    How could functionality ever come without simplicity and speed? ;)

    Well there is such a thing as over simplicity, where essential tools are taken out for the sake of simplicity. Windows 7’s movie maker live comes to mind. Movie maker in general has made me want to throw my computer on multiple occasions, but Live cut out some pretty core elements.

    • CommentAuthorRocky
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012
     
    bq. I’m going to working on improvements to the site that make community involvement easier.

    I figured it was one of the two. I'm not much of a significant presence around here, but you definitely have my support.
    • CommentAuthorMnemone
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012
     
    I wouldn't mind a few inconspicuous banner ads at the bottom of the page or along the sides of some of the longer articles. Just make sure there are no pop-ups or ads that make noise or get bigger if you accidentally hover your mouse over them.
    • CommentAuthorNo One
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012
     

    Hmm, personally, I’m…. not fond of ads, but if there is absolutely no other way, then I say, go for it, as long as they’re inconspicuous like what Mnemone said.

    II is already quite fast; in fact, the only website that I know of that loads faster than II is the Google browser searchy thing. I like how II is simple and accessible anywhere, by anyone. However, like Falling said, don’t over-strip II. I mean, bones are fine, but they can’t work without tendons, muscles, nerves and the brain (actually, I’m not sure what I just said was relevant. I’m kinda wiped out at the moment). I will be very happy if II loads a lot faster though. :)

    Regarding community involvement, that sounds like a pretty good idea.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012
     

    I agree with the majority view, II is already the fastest, cleanest and most readable site I know of. It would be difficulkt to make it much more so. For one thing, Australia would need to adopt some kind of crazy National Broadband Network just to notice the change.

    Also, comment? Please do not change Textile to HTML or WYSIWYG. I enjoy using Textile elements so much that I go onto HTML or BBCode sites and try to use it there as well.

    as for funding: I’m fine with ads, so long as they are tasteful, topical, and don’t actually interfere with my using the site. No pop-ups or pop-unders, no roll-over-to-maximise banners, and no sidle-across-the-screen-to-the-centre ads, and I’ll be happy.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012
     

    Sly, if there’s one thing I’ve always loved about II’s design, it’s how simple it is. The homepage uses, what, three colors? That sort of light cream for the background, black for text, and red for accents and titles. The forum doesn’t use much more, other than the occasional gray or brown. And I love how simple the forums are. We’re not all that huge of a forum, so separate boards isn’t really necessary, and the idea of “tagging” threads works better. And I know I (and others) have mentioned this before, but even now, the site and forums are surprisingly easy to read on even something as small as an iPod, even without having a separate mobile version or any simplification whatsoever. So I’m certainly not going to complain much if you’re saying you’d like to keep that simplicity rather than make things more complicated, as every other site seems to do inevitably!

    I do hope you can keep the overall color scheme and “look” of the site, at least. And I do have a question about the forums, will they be changed?

    Also, Textile’s fun. :) I really don’t know why more sites haven’t adopted it. Personally, I loathe WYSIWYG-only interfaces with the burning fiery passion of a thousand suns, simply because they’re so buggy. An HTML option (especially for submitting articles) wouldn’t be bad so long as Textile’s still around, though. Textile’s much simpler and faster to use than HTML, but HTML is more familiar to many people and more powerful (or at least I assume it is, I haven’t really played around with some of Textile’s more complicated markup).

    On ads, like others say, I’m fine with topical ads or text ads. Sound, things that dance around my screen so you have to play a complicated game to try to get rid of the thing, pop-ups, etc., those I might be a little more annoyed at! I know some webcomics have ads where they link to other webcomics and I’m assuming they get money for it, is there some sort of advertising system you could get into like that, where it’s actual other people on the internet, not just all Progressive insurance and LEARN ONE TIP FOR I DUNNO, PREVENTING KNEE INJURY OR WHATEVER FROM THIS MOM FROM KALAMAZOO. If you can get by without ads, of course that would be awesome, but I can be reasonable. Sometimes. :)

    •  
      CommentAuthorSoupnazi
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012
     

    Swenson, that might be Project Wonderful, which I was just about to bring up. It’s a smaller ad… thing, and so revenue from it might be less, but its ads are typically homemade by small websites and are usually in more muted, calm colors. If you have to gets ads, I’d recommend trying out Project Wonderful first.

    Just how big of a change are you proposing to the site’s layout? If you could make a brief example, or something…?

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012
     

    I think you might be right, that sounds like what I was thinking about.

  4.  

    Re revenue: wasn’t Jeni trying to organise an II t-shirts shop a few years ago when this incarnation of the forums started up? At the very least, we could buy mugs :)

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2012
     

    An II mug would be awesome! How much are mugs, anyway?

  5.  

    The cheap ones are like five bucks if you’re Australian? But I bet for an II special we could charge $12.95. I’d pay that.

    ...anyway, we’re getting off-topic.

    • CommentAuthorSlyShy
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2012
     

    I’m wary of merchandising because it is a relatively inefficient way to make money. That is, the merchandise company will take the vast majority of the money. If I can find a local shop that has a good deal, maybe.

  6.  

    Just saw the new look, and I can’t say that I’m a fan. The text size is uncomfortably large and never varies, inflating page sizes and offering no distinction between types of content (articles, tags, comments, etc.), and the lack of graphics makes the whole design rather nondescript. I really hope that this version is a work in progress. (It would certainly seem that way, given the absent menus and the vestigial page layouts from the previous design, but I wouldn’t expect a work in progress to go live, so I honestly don’t know.)

    Also (and I apologize if this design is a work in progress and this aspect isn’t final), I think that it would be better to keep the article excerpts for the front page. Without them, it’s just an impersonal, impenetrable list.

  7.  

    It is a work in progress. To protest SOPA :D

    Sly’s getting there.

    •  
      CommentAuthorKyllorac
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     

    The addition of the logo makes the front page just that much more inviting.

    •  
      CommentAuthorThea
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     

    Oh yes, I like it :) One thing that might also help: just a little line or two about what II is/does for new viewers? Actually, that might make the whole format make more sense and also more inviting. But I’m glad to see the logo again.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeJan 21st 2012
     

    Ooh, I just remembered. How about seeing the number of comments next to an article title, or at least a link directly to the comments section?

  8.  

    Now that’s a good idea.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
     

    Can I just suggest that the font for articles is perhaps a little too big? Especially the headings/article titles. I can onyl see a paragraph and a half at any time on the page, where all my other internet pages are all at a nice standard 12-14 points, and therefore fits neatly on the page.

    Honestly, with the massive page margins that anybody with a landscape-oriented screen (essentially most of the computing world except for mobile/wireless tablet/phone users) and huge font, it’s starting to remind me of the formatting from early releases of Maradonia: Seven Bridges . There just doesn’t seem to be any reason to have left-justified text set so far back from a reasonable/traditional left margin.

    •  
      CommentAuthorWulfRitter
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
     

    It is a work in progress.

    Ok, cool. I was wondering if this would be the new format because it seems a bit impersonal and a bit bland. I did like the setup of the old site – simple but inviting. But I’m sure that when you guys are down, it’ll be pretty cool.

  9.  

    it’s starting to remind me of the formatting from early releases of Maradonia: Seven Bridges

    Oooh, burrrrrn.

    •  
      CommentAuthorPuppet
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2012
     

    I’m going to go ahead and unsticky this. Comments related to the site changes can be posted in the Feedback Thread.