Alrighty. In the current story I’m writing, the main character is a werewolf living in a mostly-werewolf community. There are vampires involved, but they differ significantly from the normal sparkly, pretty, angsty portrayals of vampires in media these days. I’ll let my main explain it to you (and this scene is very rough-drafty, I’m only looking it completely over for the first time when I post it on here; if you want to criticize it feel free but it’s not necessary):

There’s a very good reason we were worried about Joseph’s body being missing and his ghost not being able to tell us about it. For centuries, every werewolf has been cremated or buried with garlic in place of a heart—because if you don’t, some very, very nasty things will happen. Just because ghosts are the only human things lurking around doesn’t mean they’re the only things, and werewolves are just the hosts some demons need to form something entirely different: vampires.

No one can remember where or when the first vampires showed up; probably it was at the death of the first werewolf, before anyone knew better. But here’s what we do know: where we have normal strength as wolves and humans, they are ten times stronger than us at their weakest. Where we feel injuries like anyone else, they can go on through any hurt besides their heads being ripped off or being exposed to sunlight. Where we can think like humans do, they are completely mindless, thinking only of having their next meal—or drink, I guess.

Most vampires form by accident. A werewolf dies in a car crash or something at night, no one takes care of it fast enough, and the body’s taken over. Most people wouldn’t form one on purpose; who would want something insane and bloodthirsty and strong, something they can’t control, so close to them? But necromancers can control them, and when a necromancer does make a vampire, there’s hell to pay.

Yes, I know that was horrible and doesn’t sound remotely like a teenage boy. But ANYWAY.

The idea for dead werewolf —> vampire came from old legends that said…dead werewolves, if not buried properly, —> vampire. Transitionword, these vamps are a lot different from anything I’ve seen in media lately, and so I’m kind of torn about this:

A) Exposition this? In a much…better way than above.
B) Drop details about it and describe the vamps when they finally make the scene?

So, thing the second: my teenage main’s girlfriend is black. He sees nothing unusual about Micah being black and would feel no need to mention it to the reader on her first appearance; if he would’ve said anything about it at first, now they’ve been friends for years and dating for over two years. I drop mentions of it in description (ex. at one point he describes himself and Micah in terms of contrasts; he’s scrawny while she works out; “[he’s] pale as a ghost, and Micah’s about as pale as coal.”).

What I’m worried about is, first of all, I’d rather get it out of the way that Micah’s black so that it doesn’t seem like I’m trying to hide it, if that makes sense, the way some authors think of their characters as being gay or drop hints but never have the guts to make them come out in-story and then you find out from the bonus material. At the same time I don’t want to seem like I’m overplaying it or trying to say Micah’s special because she’s OMGBLACK, LOOK GUYS, I’M SO PROGRESSIVE BECAUSE I HAVE A BLACK CHARACTER. Or like I’m, even worse, fetishizing Micah’s race, which seems like a pretty big risk since not only is the POV a teenage boy who is indeed having sex with Micah, I’m also bisexual, and I don’t want to come across as too, ah, strong.

God that was a long, rambly paragraph.

Oh yeah, and do any of the guys here have a tip for writing teenage boys? I don’t want to make it so that half of every page is basically a play-by-play of Theo’s dirty mind, but I also don’t want to go the Rowling route and replace “erection” with “chest monster.”

If it’s 1st person, bring it up where it’d be natural for the PoV character to comment on it. Like you said…

to the brandon signal

Okay, this made me laugh. I’m such an old member.

as a black man i am offended

also i am a little let down by your first drunkpost so i will show you how it is done at some point in the next week

For the werewolf thing: in cases like this, I prefer exposition, because when little details are dropped here and there I tend to forget that they’re part of a whole and they sort of just slip away from me. However, the difference between exposition and info-dumping, in my mind, is merely how interesting it is. Though there were a few issues with description above, it did not bore me to tears, which is a good start.

And then: Being the product of a mixed race couple, this doesn’t seem remotely strange to me. It just sort of is.When it comes to mentioning race in fiction, though, I usually go the ‘mention skin-tone’ route, just because to just say ‘black’ or ‘white’ or ‘asian’ or whatever just seems so blase. So, like, say she has dark brown skin in whatever way you manage it. I mean, whenever I introduce a character, I usually mention hair colour, eye colour, and skin colour, for descriptive reasons. When she comes in, just describe her features and her race should become evident on its own. Or, since the two are BF and GF you could have your main hold her hand at some point, and as you suggested before, mention the contrast between their skintones. I mean, it really doesn’t have to be a big deal. Race really isn’t anywhere near the most important part of a character, so don’t dwell on it too much.

You know, even though I hardly had any problems with what you wrote above – I am keeping in mind that you’ll be revising :) – I like the idea of a werewolf being turned into another creature so much, that I would like to see you play up the mystery in your story. It’s a big reveal and I like stuff like this to jump out at me.

I have no way of knowing how exactly you’re going about writing the story itself, but may I ask: Are you going to create a lot of mystery surrounding Joseph’s body? Do you want to do this in such a way that the reader wonders: “Why exactly is everyone freaking out? Sure he’s their friend (I don’t know who Joseph is, so I’m just assuming here), but why are they all this worried? What are we missing here?” And then it’s like BAM! The guy comes out of nowhere, resurrected, yet as a completely different creature and there’s a big “everything falls into place” moment for the reader: “Ah. So this is what everyone has been fearing would happen to the body.

At the same time, I agree with Beldam. The exposition can be a good thing and, if well done, doesn’t have to sound like info-dumping. I’m only saying that if you want to keep some mystery surrounding a good idea, that won’t be bad either.

Thank you, guys, for all the advice. :) I really appreciate it. None of my friends are writers and this feels really cool. And, um, what’s the Brandon Signal?

@Kyllorac: The ghost story thing is a good idea, but I’m not sure if it would work for this world. Here, it’s basically the modern world, but everyone has at least one but up to two kinds of magic (four elements, plus necromancy, empathy, and clairvoyance), and everyone knows about vampires. They’ve been used as soldiers in wars, terrorized small towns when created on accident, and used as weapons by serial killers (like in this story), among other things.

...actually, you know, those would make great urban legends. Or if he was in a history class…o.o Thank you, kind sir.

And it’s fine about you crossing culturally-acceptable lines. I used to live in the Mississippi delta. At least you have positive discrimination…

@Danielle: I really can’t think of a story that focuses on African-Americans (one time I’m going to say that term. I mean what the hell do you call a British black person, and I don’t wanna discriminate. xD) that doesn’t follow one of those plotlines. It’s kind of sad that there can’t just be a character who happens to be black without there being some kind of Lesson™ about how Discrimination Is Bad or something like that.

It’s kind of one of the reasons Micah is black in the first place (doesn’t help that the book is set in Tennesee)—not because I want to have a Lesson, but because I want there to be a character, and she happens to be black, and that’s perfectly normal.

@Beldam: I didn’t bore you to tears? Success! :D On a more serious note, I prefer to know what I’m dealing with first thing, as well, and not save it for when, say, a ravening vampire jumps on the scene and Theo takes time to note that oh yeah, that thing is made from a dead werewolf and is completely mindless and can only be controlled by a necromancer and hey when did it have time to rip out my throat?

And you’re right about the race thing. I’m probably way too worried about this, really.

@Inkblot: That actually wasn’t my original intent. xD I just love Theo (he has so far been a demigod, a god, an immortal, and a superhero; this is his first werewolfy stint) and Micah (she showed up in the superhero thing), and then I used Theo in a werewolf RP, and then I found that dead werewolf = vampire legend, and this kinda happened. But thanks.

Theo can be cynical in a gallows-humor way, but he normally just jokes around—you’ve got the academic part right, though. (In another story, there was a girl who told him her name was Helen. He introduced himself as Paris.) And you’re right about it being too long for a true thought. That’s part of why I’m worried. I’m thinking about the history class I mentioned earlier in this post, or Theo trying to scare his stepsister.

It does irritate the crap out of me when guys are too obsessed with sex/sexual things (the exception is Harry Dresden, because he is awesome). The problem is, I am not a guy, and my two male friends seem to have not hit puberty yet, and my brothers are only eleven and seven, so it’s not like I can use them for a guide. And while I don’t want to go overboard I also don’t want to give Theo a “swooping sensation in his midriff” whenever he and Micah are necking.

I think my new rule of thumb is, take out half of all sexual references every time I edit. xD

I was aware nice teenage males exist, lul. But thank you.

@Sen: Not telling people about vampires til they show up would be pretty cool, but I’m leaning towards the exposition. I’ll think about it, though—I’ve never seen that kind of thing pulled off before, at least not that I can remember.

@Swenson: Exactly. I think part of it for me is growing up in the Southern U.S. all my life—I’m afraid some people’s prejudices (and my own life experiences, honestly. The only black person I have met that didn’t live in our town’s ghetto was in his thirties and from Indiana) will have affected my writing too much.

And I can’t take credit for the werewolves-to-vamps idea. :) It’s a legend that I found on TvTropes.

...oh, alright…
...newbie, sorreh.

...does Brandon have a theme song?

All right, that seriously made me bust a gut laughing. That doesn’t happen too often.

Sorry about the gender mix-up. If it makes you feel any better, I say that to girls in real life too. And I’ve been known to say “good girl” to guys (although that was only when he said “yes, sir” to me first).

Now that I’ve thought about it I think I’mma make Theo try to scare his thirteen-year-old stepsister by telling her about the vamps.

I kinda stuck my foot in my mouth on the whole positive discrimination thing—you’re right, there’s nothing wrong with admiring a skin tone in particular. (I like really pale people. And freckles. If that says anything about me.) Sorry it came off so offensive.

Oh alright. You just quoted my discrimination comment, and then a couple paragraphs later you said it was stupid how commenting on someone’s skin color was thought of as automatically discriminatory and you seemed pretty mad.

OH KYLLORAC I’M SO SORRY I OFFENDED YOU. HOW COULD I HAVE SAID SUCH HORRIBLE THINGS ABOUT YOU.

I haven’t read this entire thread, but I will and comment more. I’d just like to chime in on the how to write teenage boys. I don’t necessarily know how to write them, but one big thing to remember is the experience of teenagers as with any person is they will vary as much as any other character.

There are those teenage boys that will turn absolutely anything into a unclever double entendre or giggle/ mishear absolutely everything in terms of crass or crude comments. But they are not the entirety of boys. Neither do all boys have ‘their game’ and can play the lady’s man like every suave teen on every hollywood film. In fact some are quiet terrified of girls despite being attracted to them. My most helpful advice is perhaps to watch Freaks and Geeks. No other tv show about teens that I’ve come across has tried tackling the variance of experience and the huge amount of uncomfortableness/ awkwardness than can exist (I was feeling uncomfortable watching some of the characters attempt to talk to the other gender on Freaks and Geeks.)

As to this part:
I don’t want to make it so that half of every page is basically a play-by-play of Theo’s dirty mind, but I also don’t want to go the Rowling route and replace “erection” with “chest monster.”

My best advice is don’t overplay it. In fact understatement would be the way to go even if you were attempting stream of consciousness. I know it’s a running joke that guys think about sex every two minutes or something like that, but it simply isn’t true. If you actually set a timer for however often it is that guys are supposed to thinking about it, it quickly becomes apparent just how ridiculous that concept actually is. It winds up sounding like mental tourettes. It would actually be a lot of work to be thinking about it that much and you could hardly live your life at all. It actually sound rather obsessive/ unhealthy for any one thing to be thought of every couple minutes or so.

What is true is that guys will immediately notice a pretty girl. We’re not looking for them, they just stand out even as you’re walking by. Where you go with that mentally is really up to the individual where it can be anywhere from ‘huh, pretty girl’ and moving right along to full on ogling, but that’s varied. In addition, guys are more easily stimulated visually.

However, even when a guy is most with obsessed with a girl, for instance in the heights of emotional up and downs with does-she-like-me-or-does-she-not. Maybe-I-should-ask-her-out-maybe-I’m-over-reacting. Even in that time, a guy is not constantly thinking of her and certainly not exclusively about sex. It’s going to be a wide variety of things from loneliness, over-analyzing past interactions, thinking of the next step, how she talked and yes how she looks.

But if a guy is busy doing something, occupied with some other project that requires thought and is just in general is busy all that stuff can be quite easily shoved to the side for hours on end. It might all come rushing back once there’s a bit of down time/ time to think. But we are pretty good at focusing on the task at hand and shoving everything else temporarily to the side.

So that would be why I would really downplay how much a guy is thinking about sex. And yes, chest monster is just weird. Like awkwardly weird. You’d be better off using actual slang however crude than make up your own strange terminology. Of course the problem with slang is that it dates itself pretty quick. but chest monster will always be weird. That is, in fact, timeless.

We never forget any Imps. <3

I always wonder what’s going on now with those people who disappear into cyberspace.

That’s easy. We went on to live our lives. ;P

That’s easy. We went on to live our lives. ;P

I meant in a creeper ‘what are they actually doing’ kind of way. But yeah.

Aug 9th 2009

Pfft, I don’t even think you were on the original forums, with all the wonderful people like Rob The Hamburger, Paladin, Corsair, Syrith, CompleteBastard and Ishy. ;)

they differ significantly from the normal sparkly, pretty, angsty portrayals of vampires in media these days

If sparkly is “normal” then I’m sane.
Having said that – I’m glad you’re not bandwagoning. I respect that.

He sees nothing unusual about Micah being black and would feel no need to mention it to the reader on her first appearance; if he would’ve said anything about it at first, now they’ve been friends for years and dating for over two years.

This already told me that you don’t have as big of a problem as you thought.

OMGBLACK, LOOK GUYS, I’M SO PROGRESSIVE BECAUSE I HAVE A BLACK CHARACTER.

More on that in a moment.

really, if there wasn’t something about her physical appearance that he particularly liked, that would be weird

Deep down, all of us have a little bit of shallowness. some more than others, of course, but that’s not my point. See, the first thing you notice about someone is his/her looks, and we all have our little preferences and likes and dislikes and whatnot, so yeah. Besides, a teenaged boy dating a girl and going on and on about her personality and her voice and her handwriting or whatever, and never saying a single thing about her looks, would be extremely weird. Downright creepy, IMO.

Y’know, I’m going to cross another one and say that maybe it’s time we writers risked that. We’ve got tons of literature about races and racism, but they always follow one of three socially approved plotlines:

Dani, you’re not a fighter pilot, are you? I swear, you hit that mark with your eyes closed. Awesome.
My biggest pet peeves are with sexism/double standard/discrimination against whatever sexual preference (and don’t get me started on the ludicrous amount of cliches and socially approved bullshit in that area!), but racism follows in a close second.

Note: If any of you have seen stories that defy these conventions, please direct me to them

Wash and Zoe were happily married, weren’t they?

I have nothing against classical Eastern European folklore per se.

i wuv it!!!111!!!!

I am also fiercely, bitterly nonconformist down to the core. Your narrative voice sounds a lot like me in my blacker moods – a balance of academic dryness with dark, cynical humor.

Ah, Inky. One day when my deranged brain finally gives in, you will be the perfect candidate to take up my sword.

I love the idea of werewolves becoming vampires. That is a really fascinating idea.

It really is. You know what I myself like about it? That the weres are “normal”, civilized people, and that the vamps are crazed, mindless monsters. It’s usually the other way around. no really – go have a look. Vamps are almost always classy white snobs who do or do not drink…. wine, and weres are dirty scruffy Native American tribal peoples who like beating the shit out of each other for fun.

It’s kind of sad that there can’t just be a character who happens to be black without there being some kind of Lesson™ about how Discrimination Is Bad or something like that. It’s kind of one of the reasons Micah is black in the first place (doesn’t help that the book is set in Tennesee)—not because I want to have a Lesson, but because I want there to be a character, and she happens to be black, and that’s perfectly normal.

^This. Like I said, there’s a mini-rant on the way.

Now, that minirant:

You wanna know how not to do it?
Exhibit A: House of Night.

Our protagonist, Zoey Redbird, is part-Cherokee and as such SO IN TOUCH WITH NATURE AND ITS MYSTICALNESS AND HER CULTURAL HERITAGE AND ANCESTORS AND SHIT!11!!1!!!!!1!!
But wait! There’s more:
Once she gets to the titular vampire school, she makes a bunch of BFFs, among which is Stevie Rae (Okie), Damien (gay) and Shaunee (black). You see the words in brackets? Each word describes the character in question’s ENTIRE FUCKING PERSONALITY.

Damien has conservative, homophobic parents, especially his dad. He also feels the need to point out whenever he sees a hot guy, because he likes guys instead of girls, because he’s gay, you know? His girl friends also constantly tell him that he shouldn’t try to give them advice on guys, cause he’s not like a real guy anyway, you know, since he doesn’t like girls, you know, what with being gay and all. this is treated as a joke, not an insult. Also, he’s very sensitive and caring and chatty and cultured and he talks with his hands and likes commenting on pretty clothes because he’s gay. His girl friends like pointing out that he’s gay, and Zoey’s narrative describes him as gay and not straight everytime he makes an appearance. Why? BECAUSE HE’S GAY, GODDAMMIT! THIS IS SUCH A PROGRESSIVE BOOK, FOR FEATURING A GAY SUPPORTING CHARACTER!!!!

Stevie Rae wears cowboy boots and a Stetson and likes listening to Kenny Rodgers and Shania Twain. She speaks with a nigh indecipherable country twang. Because she’s an Okie, you know?

Shaunee developed a crush on an Okie guy and felt bad, because what if he’s a racist? Cause all Okies are racists. She commented on a black redshirt who died, cause it’s such a shame when a “cute brother” dies, and upon this Zoey felt the need to point out that it’s a shame when any cute guy dies, BECAUSE RACE SHOULDN’T MATTER ANYMORE IN SOCIETY TODAY U GAIS R U LISTENEENG?? Ugly or average-looking guys are a different ballgame, it seems.
Zoey then encourages Shaunee to go for the Okie guy, and they end up dating, and Zoey’s narrative tells us that a mixed-race couple is SO RARE AND AWESOME and that the rest of the world can learn SO MUCH about tolerance and whatnot from this. also, Shaunee’s BF feels the need to comment on her race as well.

sighs an actual RL sigh

I’m done.
Credit goes to Zeldaqueen on livejournal, who sporked this shit.
I feel her pain.

^You see?

One commenter on zeldaqueen’s spork noted that at least Shaunee isn’t named LaShonda or something like that.

it’s a shame when any cute guy dies

This is so shallow it’s horrifying. >.>

This is so shallow it’s horrifying. >.>

You might not want to look up the series. It starts off with so shallow it’s horrifying and then it breaks down into the glorification of the worst aspects of…well, call it humanity, even though vampires are, of course, the bestest of best everness, including the best people. Why is that such a popular trope? :(

But personally, I also like the idea of just having a cast of characters of whatever heritage and then not not making too big a deal about it. Depending on the story, it may make a difference in subplots and character interactions, but I also don’t want to overstep and appropriate someone’s experience that I haven’t made an effort to understand, etc.

But do we know Angelina and Dean are black, really? Does it matter? The answer is No. They just become names with no particular appearance attached to them. Nice names, reasonably memorable names, names of people who are "the good guys", but it's not something you notice or remember until at least the third reading.

If everyone has dark hair and dark eyes then race is entirely unimportant.

Yes, it specifically mentions their race, but is that really what the reader sees subconsciously when their name appears in the text? JK Rowling created some of the greatest characters ever written, but outside the triumvirate and certain teachers like Snape or Dumbeldore, the physical appearance of most of the characters isn't mentioned very much or merits memorable description. Kingsley Shacklebolt and Cho Chang have distinct physical appearances, the latter mostly because of her name and Harry's obsession, but most characters of colour are not drawn in much detail.

Their ethnicity is arbitrary, in other words.

I found this subject to be interesting, as one of my stories-in-progress has the hero, who is white, falling in love with a black woman. It is a different world, so the racial history isn’t the same, but I do have the idea of him thinking she is beautiful because she is black, not in spite of being black. I appreciated Kyllorac’s comments on the attractiveness of black women, and I hope to be able to work something like that into the story. The hero of this story probably would notice things like that in contrast to him, since he is a very fair-skinned redhead. I admit I haven’t had many ideas about her culture, because I didn’t want to fall into stereotypes like Paolini did. Later, a couple characters of mixed race will appear in the other stories set in that world.
And yes, I like the way that Harry Potter did it. There were black characters, but they weren’t defined by their race. (Though I actually quite liked what we saw of Kingsley Shacklebolt, and would like to know more about him.) I remember that Percy Jackson brought that up, too—there was a black character (Beckendorf), but he was mostly defined by his crafting ability, which was a big asset to his friends. And a daughter of Aphrodite was in love with him, so he must have been pretty attractive.
I would like to know more about making a black character, without making them the token black character. Same thing for other races.

You could always just keeping using sir for both.

Women/girls get “sir”-ed all the time on the internet. Especially when they say something awesome/funny.

Especially when everyone on the internet thinks they’re a guy.

bq. Had he been American, he’d have looked like a certain actor.
He’d have dramatically misquoted old wizarding tomes before cursing some Death Eater’s head off, and he would’ve doubledared motherfuckers to say “Potter Stinks!” one more goddamned time.
That’s what I think, anyway.

That would have been awesome!

Actually in an idea I had these angels in human form gleefully kill evildoers and make up bible verses a la Jules Winnfield.

Well then, I would suggest that you don’t. There’s no female equivalent for sir (at least not one that will carry the same meaning as the one you’re looking for. I mean lady or ma’am just doesn’t seem to sit right, does it?) so maybe make up a title? You’ve probably already considered this, and if you have, I’d say go for it. I’ve also come across a few titles that I had problems with, so I made up my own. The great thing about this is that, since it’s your own, you can ascribe exactly the meaning you were going for to that word. So you don’t feel that “sir” should be used to address a female. Well, in creating a title that’s going to be used specifically for a female officer, I think you would get a much stronger meaning across. I don’t think one can really picture a soldier or whatever characters you may have, barking at the officer: Ma’am, yes, ma’am!

Yeah … it’s not the same as it is with “sir”, is it? Go ahead and make up a title and allow it to carry as strong a connotation as “sir” does. Something intimidating, something that gives the reader the idea that any female bearing that title ought to be respected. Have you ever considered making up titles for both male and female officers? I suppose with the male officers you could have the freedom to alternate between your own word and with words like “sir” or “captain”, but it’s really fun to create your very own systems within a fantasy story. Maybe play around with your own ranking system with the Dwarves army and ascribe your own titles to each rank. Maybe you’re already doing that, and if you are, go on and do the same with the captains as well. Just a suggestion.