Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories

Vanilla 1.1.8 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome Guest!
Want to take part in these discussions? If you have an account, sign in now.
If you don't have an account, apply for one now.
    • CommentAuthorDeborah
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2011
     

    So in your opinion, what constitutes a shout-out, and what constitutes a rip-off? Because sometimes I have a hard time telling them apart. If its a sort of similar line but said by a totally different type of character in a different situation, does it still count?

    • CommentAuthorDanielle
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2011
     

    Here’s a black and white example: Paolini’s scene in Eldest (at least I think it was Eldest) where Eragon chooses a sword. Maybe he meant it as a shout-out to Rowling, but it was so obvious I couldn’t help but see it as a ripoff. I mean, if that swordmaker had run into Ollivander on the street, Ollivander would’ve had him sent to Azkaban for identity theft.

    On the other hand, The Lightning Thief has one of the most epic shout-outs I’ve ever seen.

    • CommentAuthorMoggo
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2011 edited
     
    When anyone who is even only remotely familiar whit the source can tell where it comes from, or what it is refering to, and it's done in a way that allows the story to go on as intended to even if we remove it, I consider it a shout-out. But I agree that the line is thin.
    • CommentAuthorWiseWillow
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2011
     

    I forgot about that Lightning Thief shout-out. It is, indeed, epic :D

    • CommentAuthorDanielle
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2011
     

    It’s like he’s saying “Hey, Jo, loved your book! Percy’s dyslexic, so he can’t read it, but if it was ever translated into ancient Greek, I’m sure he’d love it!” Just fun and good-natured.

    But when an author takes a story element and applies just enough of a veil to thwart copyright lawyers, then it starts to become a rip-off. But, like Moggo said, the line is thin.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2011
     

    In my opinion (and didn’t we have a thread like this a while back?) a shout-out is a non-essential reference mto another work, wherewas a rip-off is when major points of another work are used as an essential component of the new story.

    Example: the plot of Eragon is a rip-off of the plot of Star Wars 4. However, that scene where they reference The Doctor is a shout-out: non-essential, short-lived, acknowledged as a shout-out, and doesn’t try to make it an actual part of the world. The Doctor doesn’t appear as a character in the world, and is not mentioned again. (Similarly in the Percy Jackson example, Harry doesn’t appear as an actual character. That would be copyright theft.)

    •  
      CommentAuthorThea
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2011
     

    ^^I agree with Taku.

    And more than just non-essential, I think it should be mostly invisible to the reader who doesn’t catch it—they’ll surely be one (like fools, I suppose). In one of my creative writing classes, I wanted my main character to be a reader who still reread her favorite series from childhood (admittedly, one of mine). Then my teacher said he had no idea who that was, and that he though I shouldn’t use the real title. So in a draft I just used the character’s name. This may not be the most illustrative example and maybe no one would catch it either way: but the ultimate effect is that the reader who doesn’t know the reference won’t feel like they’re missing anything or even confused by that one line that just doesn’t make sense in context.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2011
     

    And at the same time, to add to Thea’s post without missing a beat, the reader who does catch the reference gets a little thrill of geekish excitement from finding it. In video games they’d be called “easter eggs”, little out-of-the-way things that you stumble upon that contain references to popular culture or previous works (like the Fat Lute and the Banhammer in Morrowind). When you catch a well-written shout-out, there’s this little jolt of recognition followed by an almost warm thought of “the author and I like the same things!” that is perhaps the only time when breaking the fourth wall is an effective tool.

    •  
      CommentAuthorThea
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2011
     

    Oh yes! I do love shout outs when I catch them, which is why I mentioned in my own story that I’m not sure if anyone could catch it. And if no one can, does the reference stand alone? But they can be really great for connecting with your intended audience (since, even when writing for yourself, you should know what a given audience would think of it) and make those who catch it feel like part of an in-group, which I think is great for building fans.

    The Sims games use easter eggs all over the place, some more obvious than others. (And I think I may have derailed my own point a bit. I hope it at least makes some sense. If not, just read Taku’s again.)

  1.  

    I love this.
    I love the fact that this thread exists.

    More on-topic: I’m a huge lover of shoutouts. I use them constantlky in my own work, sometimes more obscurely than others, but still.

    Here’s an example of a very sneaky, but well-done, shoutout: Frieza (DBZ) has 4 forms, right? And form 3 looks very familiar, what with its oblong head and squeaky voice and hunched back… hell, you almost expect it to bleed acid (except that it doesn’t, cause that would make it a ripoff, methinks).

  2.  

    There’s LOADS in Lemony Snicket’s books, about everything from Monty Python to Moby Dick.

    •  
      CommentAuthorClibanarius
    • CommentTimeJan 29th 2011 edited
     
    Dresden Files

  3.  

    Can’t remember the name, but there’s some urban fantasy series out there in which the following occurs:

    The witch is asked if she knows any male magic users aka wizards. She then says that she heard about this one guy in Chicago, but he usually has his hands full.

    Also, there’s the very obvious & hilarious homage in tim burton’s Charlie & the Chocolate Factory. You know – the chocolate-teleporting scene?

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeJan 31st 2011
     

    I agree with the “shout-outs must be subtle” thing. It should be the sort of thing where you have to know the other material well enough to notice it, but if you don’t you aren’t going to sit there for an hour trying to figure out what on earth this Big Lipped Alligator Moment is supposed to mean. Anything more obvious than that, and it’s just contrived.

    I think it’s all a matter of intent, to be honest. Something intended as a homage but handled poorly can appear to be a rip-off, even though it wasn’t intended that way (see, for example, a lot of clumsily done shout-outs in the Inheritance Cycle). Or if you try to shout out to too many things (see yet again the Inheritance Cycle), it just gets to the point where you want to say “Quit shouting out and write your own story!”

  4.  

    Something intended as a homage but handled poorly can appear to be a rip-off, even though it wasn’t intended that way

    Say you’re writing sci-fi (as in, space opera), and you use the number 47 too often – that’s kinda ripoff-y, I think.
    But if you use the numbers 1191811 and 191615311 as some kind of Universal Code™, you should be okay.

    • CommentAuthorNo One
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     

    I’m already trying to figure out the number 47 and the numbers 1191811 and 191615311.

    Could someone help me out here?

  5.  

    47 is Star Trek’s special number.
    They use it all the time.
    All. The. Time.
    But I don’t know why.

    The other two I just made up.
    Like so:

    1191811 = 11-9-18-11 = KIRK
    191615311 = 19-16-15-3-11 = SPOCK

    • CommentAuthorNo One
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     

    ..... Ah. That makes sense. Except I wouldn’t have gotten it because I don’t watch Star Trek. Why is 47 Star Trek’s special number?

  6.  

    I have no idea.
    But like I said, they always use it for something. There’s even an alien known as Species 8472 that is some kind of evolutionary supreme being.

    If someone in a sci-fi story so much as mentions the number 47, all the readers/viewers/players at home immediately think of Star Trek.

  7.  

    Nininininininini
    I love Shivering Isles.

    • CommentAuthorDeborah
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     

    Or I’ve seen other shout outs, like in ‘The Last Unicorn’ where Schemedrick asks Rukh a riddle that has no answer. Its ‘why is a raven like a writing desk?’ :P