Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories

Vanilla 1.1.8 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome Guest!
Want to take part in these discussions? If you have an account, sign in now.
If you don't have an account, apply for one now.
    •  
      CommentAuthorLeliel
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2010
     

    So what do you do when someone thought something up before you? :)

    I was perusing our favorite site as I often do and it seems the name I was using for Damascus steel has already been used D: Now I feel obligated to change it. If I had never looked on TVTropes, I never would have known. Should I make sure I’m not unwittingly duplicating anything else that already exists? Google all my character names to make sure they’re original? I am torn between ignorance is bliss and all my ideas probably appeared in something and I should find out. Massive FFFUUU :c

  1.  

    Nothing new under the sun, right?

    Just do your own thing and don’t read TV Tropes, if it’s a problem. You can’t stop reading TV Tropes, you say? Check out the Troper Tales section. If you’re anything like me, it’ll completely ruin the site for you, and you will never feel compelled to go there again, and therefore won’t have to know if you are accidentally duplicating something.

    ...Okay, jabs at TV Tropes aside, I think you’re worrying about nothing. ‘New, Exciting Ideas’ is usually just an oasis mirage for the lazy when they’re trapped in the desert of failure and don’t want to put in the effort to get out. Competent execution isn’t easy or sexy, but it trumps ‘ideas’ every time. It doesn’t actually make your story better if your protagonist is named Gregbilly McTarnagoogle, and he’s the only Gregbilly McTarnagoogle in fiction. His name could be John Smith and it wouldn’t matter, as long as he was competently written.

    Take The Wire. Granted, it’s not a book(although it’s got more in common with Dickens and the huge Russian novels than other TV shows), but it’s the best piece of fiction in its medium. It isn’t great because it has an innovative premise or setting, because it doesn’t. It’s great because it’s got the best writing and it executes better than any other show.

    So yeah, that’s what I think.

  2.  

    I actually love looking up examples of what I am writing on TVT, because I want to read other stories to see how its done right and how its done wrong. Especially how its done wrong.

    Don’t feel obligated to change a character’s name just to make it original. Take it like butter, babe. Besides, your readers won’t care a damn bit… Think of all your favorite stories and how many names overlap. Captain Jack from Pirates of the Carb. and from Torchwood, for example. Bruce Banner and Bruce Wayne.

    What makes character’s names memerable are that they are the names of memerable characters. The crux between their personalities and occupations and actions. :)

  3.  

    *memorable.

    But I like what ProserpinaFC and sansa are saying. Good writing trumps all.

    Leliel, if Damascus steel fits, use it. Don’t worry about it. It would be different if you intended to use it because you got the idea from there, but you’re not copying. Somebody’s had the same idea as you, and that just means it must be a really appropriate name. Soon, everybody’ll be using it, and you won’t be the odd one out. :)

  4.  

    Good writing trumps all.

    Truth.

    It would be different if you intended to use it because you got the idea from there, but you’re not copying.

    This sentence is also Da Truth, but it made me think of something: how do you differentiate between plagiarism and shoutout-ism? How do you make your readers realise that you put in a certain something, not because you’re lazy and unoriginal, but because you liked the idea/image/concept/plot point in the previous work where it first appeared?

    How do you make your readers go “hey, I got that one!” without telling them outright “dis is a shoutuot u gaiz – i gots it frm mah favoirt movi/buuk/serise an i wantd 2 maek a homidge!!!111!!!111”?

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2010 edited
     

    A homage is subtle, short-lived and doesn’t affect the characters or plot in any major way. Plagiarism is a large and intrinsic part of the plot/characters/setting, without which the story doesn’t work. At least, the way the guys at Anti-Shurtugal figured it. Paolini using the plot of Star Wars is plagiarism. Throwing in a reference to “steeking barges!” is a shout-out, because it doesn’t affect the plot, could have been omitted without changing anything, and is instantly recognisable as a homage. Having an accused witch saying “I’n not a witch, I’m just dressed like one!” is a homage, but taking a great deal of dialogue, character and plot information from Holy Grail and inserting it into your work is plagiarism.

  5.  

    What he said.

  6.  

    Ah, okay.
    Thanks, Taku.

    Um, this is going to sound stupid, but what is this “steeking barges”-thing that you speak of?

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2010 edited
     

    In Eragon, or perhaps Eldest, Paolini had a character say “we don’t want no stinking barges!”, which is an almost-direct quotation from the movie Blazing Saddles. It’s such a common homage/shout-out that there’s a website set up specifically to record its appearance in different media.

    Basically, it was a meme before memes.

  7.  

    I see.

    So it was kind of like “I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore?”?

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2010 edited
     

    Yeah, pretty much. That site lists more than a hundred references to it in movies, radio, book, TV, newspapers/magazines, music and cartoons, spanning from the original reference in 1935, right through to Eldest in 2005. That’s what I’d call a homage, using a recognisable line that will make readers go “hey, yeah! I remember that!”. It’s a kind of shared moment of nostalgia between readers and author, like when a bunch of 40-year olds all go “Ni!” at each other1. Whereas plagiarism is reusing or reproducing significant elements or portions of the plot, setting or prose (the last technically being copyright theft) in detail without acknowledging the source. It’s a homage without the “hey, yeah!” moment.

    1 40-year-olds today would have been 15 or so when Holy Grail first came out and the jokes were still fresh and new. Therefore, nostalgia. It’s like my generation saying “Thats just what this country needs, a cock in a frock on a rock.”

  8.  

    I think it’s sort of jarring when homage lines like that are used in fantasy works, though. I mean, pop culture + completely made up world = don’t mix.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2010
     

    That’s true, and I wasn’t going to mention it because it’s not really on-topic about the nature of homages, but it is a good point. Gandalf having a fit and crying “leave Britney alone!” doesn’t make sense (and never will), but someone joking about the same line in a modern real-world setting would.

  9.  

    I have that image burned into my brain now, and I must thank you for it. You have brought joy to my world.

  10.  

    pop culture + completely made up world = don’t mix.

    Truth. And yet some writers don’t seem to get the bloody memo.

    Gandalf having a fit and crying “leave Britney alone!”

    This is where I’m going to fight fire with fire meme with meme: “Aw HELL naw!”

  11.  

    I think I just died a little inside.

  12.  

    pop culture + completely made up world = don’t mix.

    What I don’t get is why not make inner-story pop culture references? I wanna go back in time to perhaps 1998 and tell J.K. Rowling that if she wants the greatest magical objects in the world to be idealized in a children’s fairytale book, she should probably have the kids making references to it while they are 11 and 12. Then, when they are 15, Nevil should make a reference and someone call him out for using a kiddie joke.

    I mean, Hogwarts, A History is mentioned 56,000 times, not to mention several authors wrote several grades’ books, but she either didn’t think to do it for the Bard, or she really only did think of that book and that plot twist while writing Deathly Hallows. And even then, why not just make the story a passage in Hogwarts, A History ?

  13.  

    What I don’t get is why not make inner-story pop culture references? I wanna go back in time to perhaps 1998 and tell J.K. Rowling that if she wants the greatest magical objects in the world to be idealized in a children’s fairytale book, she should probably have the kids making references to it while they are 11 and 12. Then, when they are 15, Nevil should make a reference and someone call him out for using a kiddie joke.

    That would definitely have been awesome.
    “Why is the Room of Requirement hidden? Do they keep the Elder Wand in there, or something?”
    “Neville, don’t be ridiculous. The Elder Wand only exists in those lame stories your granny told you when you were little,”

    I’ve tried doing something like that in one or two of my stories – putting in references to popular beliefs, superstitions, stories… and yes, even culture. However, the HP-verse doesn’t contain a lot of entertainment-culture, it must be said. What do they read? Books about magic? What music do they listen to? The Weird Sisters and that other woman on the radio. (I can’t remember her name, but Molly is a huge fan of her)

    But, once again – good point, Proserpina.:-)

  14.  

    If she had remembered to do that for this one plot twist, JK Rowling would have been crowned Empress Joanne of the Potterverse, Queen of Chekhov’s Gun, Duchess of Someday This Will Come In Handy.

    As it is, Their Glories, King Matt Groening and King David X. Cohen are still Kings of Chekhov’s Gun for their mastery over New New York. Details in the first episode not paying off until season 4?! An entire movie tying together plot points so obscure, I didn’t remember them until the Brick Joke landed? Well played, sirs. Well played.

  15.  

    New New York?

    Can’t say I’m familiar with that one.
    But yes, Chekhov’s Guns and Brick Jokes are FTW.

    I remember (with much shaking of head and smiling fondly) how I threw a Chekhov’s Gun into the very second draft I ever finished. Horrible, truly pathetic Suefic full of plotholes, anticlimaxes and too-easy-to-be-a-challenge bad guys that it was, it still had a Chekhov’s Gun. Heeheehee.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeOct 27th 2010
     

    Who did New New York first, Doctor Who or Futurama?

  16.  

    right, that’s it, I’m going on a Simpson’s marathon. This I have to see.

    •  
      CommentAuthorLeliel
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2010
     

    Welp, a week later I’m still “argh” over this, but I never did change it and I think I would have if I was going to. I guess I still might if I think of something better, but I doubt I will :P

    View more Futurama! Hypnotoad commands it.

  17.  

    right, that’s it, I’m going on a Simpson’s marathon. This I have to see.

    Do you mean Futurama? They’re different shows.