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  1.  

    This

    (warning for possible triggers to victims of sexual assault, harassment, or abuse.)

    Now, I’m not sticking this into serious discussion, although you guys can veer that way if you wish, because why I’m posting is because I want to ask you if you’re doing this in your writing and to draw your attention to the fact. It’s not just about the abuse side of things, but if you’re writing a romance in your fiction, are you unintentionally excusing the guy from this kind of behaviour? Is your book or story going to be read by impressionable pre-teen girls (ahem. Twilight.) who will take this as the norm? Are you, however unintentionally, going to perpetrate rape culture in your book?

    I think this ‘no means no’ thing might be an important thing to discuss for us as writers. We’ve thrown Twilight against a wall again and again for this, drawn attention to it a number of times—_as readers_. Not as writers. If we’re going to contribute to popular culture, we should be aware of stuff like this.

    throws bone to dogs Discuss.

  2.  

    I don’t think I do that, but only because my books have the guy being protected by the girl (most of the time), and I don’t hold up my male characters as “Teh strong protectors of womyn!!!!11!!” I try to avoid the clichéd rape-as-plot-device plot. Not only is that sexist (reducing rape to a plot device easily solved by “teh powah of MEN!”), it’s hackneyed and overused. And since my guys aren’t particularly strong, and I try to base the love on friendship, and I try to make the women strong, I’m hoping I’m not doing it. But now I’m going to start looking through my work and really looking to see how it could be construed by a pre-teen girl.

  3.  
    I don't really have much to add to Smartie's comment here--I try to have my characters be friends first and love interests after. I also have male characters that aren't particularly strong--in my WIP, the male lead is actually jealous of the female lead because she seems so much more competent and together than he feels. And honestly. while I always like to write about love interests, I try to keep it simple. Mainly, this means: no sex. I have nothing against sex, per se--it's just that:
    1) My characters seem too immature (even by the end of the book) to think about sex, and sex isn't really important to them
    2) I would be stupid to write about something that I have NO idea about. (TV shows and movies don't count...especially since I usually skip over those parts :))
    But, like Smartie, I will be going through my story with a fine tooth comb, since it is primarily aimed at adolescent girls.

    Thanks for the thought-provoking article!
  4.  

    Um, my story is almost entirely based on slice of life romance. I really don’t think I have any of this “no means yes” crap in there, though if any of you have been reading my writing thread, let me know. My characters are rather traditional “I woman, I cook” and “I man, I come home to dinner” but they aren’t just that. Both of them work, she likes cooking, she has opinions of her own (though in my story I’ve yet to depict an argument between them). Anyway, I will definitely keep this in mind.

    •  
      CommentAuthorNorthmark
    • CommentTimeJun 9th 2010
     

    I read your writing, Willow, and WOMAN MAKE ME A SANDWICH DAMMIT didn’t even remotely come to mind. :p

    I do see the point of the article, and even though I’ve never read Hush, Hush I can agree with the general points. The behavior in what’s intended to be, as far as I know, a normal romance, is indeed stalkerish.

    However, I can see (especially in some of the comments below it) how this is easily taken too far in the other direction. Some guys (I’ve seen this happen with my friends, repeatedly) just don’t know how to approach girls without seeming creepy. They might have a girl reject them, but there’s always the possibility that “maybe she’ll like me someday” etc. Also, on another Twilight-related (and often ranted about by feminists) note is that having a man that wants to take care of you and keep you safe is different from “I’m going to stalk you on a trip with your friends to keep you from getting in danger.” I have a pretty sensitive radar to feminism though so maybe I’m misinterpreting it.

    Of course I’m purposely thinking of writing this into an incubus because he thinks his sheer sexiness will overpower the no responses of any girl he wants. This does end up being (mostly) false, but really it’s one of those things that you should, at some point, establish isn’t a healthy thing for relationships.

  5.  

    I read your writing, Willow, and WOMAN MAKE ME A SANDWICH DAMMIT didn’t even remotely come to mind. :p

    Yaaaaaaay. Excellent.

  6.  

    I worry my female lead could read as abusive x_x

  7.  

    Abusive how? Verbally, physically, or emotionally?

  8.  

    Physically. There’s a couple of time she gets upset and takes a swing at the male lead, and she’s a super and he’s a normal guy, so he ends up with bruises and swelling.

  9.  

    Well, it all depends on the circumstances. Does she do it a lot, or was it only a one-time instance where she was especially upset? Was she genuinely sorry afterward and tried to make sure nothing of the sort happened again? Does she respect him the majority of the time, or is she constantly putting him down?

    And even interpretations of the answers to the above questions could depend on context.

  10.  

    Well, she has a tendency to hit him when she decides he’s done something stupid, but not very hard. About 75% of the way through, things happen and he starts acting like a colossal asshole and she hits him with some of her supernatural power behind it, and feels pretty horrified about it immediately. They part ways the next day, but for plot reasons.

    She does put him down all the time, but that’s just how their relationship dynamic works, and he does it too. It mutates into a weird, mutually unacknowledged friendship during the second act, but they never really stop ripping on each other. I guess it could be mutually verbally abusive? At any rate, I’m more concerned about it looking like a stock bickeromance than seeming abusive.

  11.  

    Yeah, it does seem more bickeromantic than really abusive from what you’ve said.

    •  
      CommentAuthorMiel
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2010
     

    I think that rape culture and idealising codependent relationships is one of the most disturbing trends in YA fiction. Only in the last century has the cultural view of women as prizes or possessions begun to give way to the view of women as capable individuals. Losing any of this progress to silly teen culture is something that I find pretty horrifying.

    I’ve kind of made this a major theme in my non-Lovecraftian writing. It was unintentional, but I don’t like to portray lasting, unhealthy relationships. What a healthy relationship should aim for is interdependence, not codependence. Most of my characters aren’t all the way there, but they either learn or the relationship falls apart.

    And then there’s the problem with one-sided relationships and unrequited love. Normal people get over it when someone doesn’t return their feelings. It is not normal to stalk the person until they love you. I can’t even imagine how writers got this idea.

  12.  

    It is not normal to stalk the person until they love you.

    How does that even work?

    STALKER: I will follow you forever until you say you love me!
    STALKEE: You are a creeper, and yet I find your creepy single-minded obsession with me a solid foundation for our relationship! Let us frolic!

    ...I still don’t get it.

    •  
      CommentAuthorNorthmark
    • CommentTimeJun 11th 2010 edited
     

    Honestly though, I see some of this as feminists reading too far into something. Stalking isn’t okay, but I don’t think tons of teen girls are going out, reading Twilight, and suddenly years of progress towards equality have vanished. All the ex-Twilight fans I know freely acknowledge that the romance between Edward and Bella wasn’t the best. Twilight isn’t something that people like forever, it doesn’t age well with its fans. With the exception of the Twimoms, who are definitely old enough to have made up their minds on the female’s role in society, I guarantee you most of the girls who love Twilight now will not go into a relationship when they’re of age for anything serious, looking for a man who stalks them to nearby towns when they go out with friends.

    There’s definitely nothing wrong with writing healthy, interdependent relationships. But those who don’t should be regarded more as incompetent authors instead of brain ninjas trying to infiltrate the minds of vulnerable teen girls.

  13.  

    I can’t even imagine how writers got this idea.

    Hello!? The writers are the ones with unrequited love, so they write a world in which the guy gets the girl. Simple. dusts off hands You can pay me later.

    @ Northmark:

    The thing is, literature is a very subtle way of gradually influencing people’s ideas and what they think about. Even if that wasn’t the case, relationships that we are told are healthy when they aren’t can hardly be beneficial, can they?

  14.  

    Especially if, like in the Edward/Bella/Jacob triangle, the healthy relationship is portrayed as bad.

    That’s like if I wrote a story about a girl, her best guy friend who obviously has a crush on her, and the marmoset who’s the love of her life. And have it end with her getting with the marmoset.

    •  
      CommentAuthorTakuGifian
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2010
     

    although really, I’m sure a large potion of society would pay good money to see hot chick-on-marmoset action.


    unf unf unf.

  15.  

    Oh, god, Brain Bleach. I NEED IT NOW.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2010
     

    I had this wonderfully heart-felt little post written here about healthy relationships and firm boundaries in said relationships, and then I realized it had very little to do with the actual topic at hand. So I’m saving it for a more appropriate time.

    Anyway, I have to agree with Northmark. I don’t think the current trends of VERY CREEPY AND DECIDEDLY UNHEALTHY relationships in YA novels is instantly going to undo gender equality, etc. But I do fear that it’s a reflection of what society thinks right now. I read this post after reading the one Steph originally posted, and I have to agree with a lot of it. If what that post says is true, then it’s easy to see why this sort of thing keeps cropping up in YA novels: because it’s what we believe, just taken to an extreme extent.

    I also have to agree with Steph’s response, though, which puts me firmly in the rather uncomfortable position of riding the fence (I seem to do that often, don’t I?). It’s like this thing I learned about in regards to marketing (MTV, specifically) in my Pop Culture class this year, the giant feedback loop. Literature (and other forms of media) not only reflect what we believe, but influence what we believe… which means they will then change to reflect our new beliefs, and we will be influenced to change our beliefs, and literature will change to reflect those beliefs, and so on. The only way to break the cycle, at least the way I see it, is by introducing new material into the loop, new material that depicts better relationships, which would hopefully influence people in a positive direction.

  16.  
    @swenson: I watched a really cool documentary about that on PBS--I can't remember what it was called, unfortunately. Wow. My attempt to be nerdy just epic failed. But it is a very interesting concept--MTV or another teen-oriented channel sets up certain expectations for teen behavior, which teenagers then mimic, which is then aped on various other forms of media...and I also agree with you that introducing new material is the only way to break the loop, but even that would take a while.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNorthmark
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2010
     
  17.  

    Well…that’s depressing.

    •  
      CommentAuthorswenson
    • CommentTimeJun 18th 2010
     

    Ah, yes, that’s the one I watched too! My teacher was obsessed with NPR and PBS, which meant we watched a lot of documentaries. It’s an interesting thing to watch, if anyone’s interested.

  18.  

    I am writing my first kiss. I’m feeling very awkward about it, too. :P

    • CommentAuthorDeborah
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2010
     
    My hero and heroine kiss at the end. It does feel a bit awkward.
  19.  

    @SWQ: OMG, SO YOU’RE NOT GOING TO KILL ONE OF THEM OFF?? YAY!!!
    Wait, I THINK it was you who said you were thinking of killing one of your main characters off, right?

  20.  

    @ lookingforme: Well, just because they kiss doesn’t mean they’re safe. But yeah, still haven’t decided on that, because that point’s a long way off. They have plenty of time to suffer for now. :)

    And thanks for the interest/excitement. It made me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

    •  
      CommentAuthorThea
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2010
     

    Before I started found the Twilight criticisms, which is to say, before I’d even heard of Twilight, I started writing a story for a Christian forum I was in that evolved into a romance. It started with the main character moving to a new a town and being welcomed, in particular, into one group of old friends. And she’s fascinated by the brother of one friend who is no outside the group. So at first she doesn’t talk to him, but she finds herself striking up a friendship anyway, because he’s interesting and sincere.

    Now, this relates because in her group of friends, one guy pursues her. He’s extremely good looking and charismatic, and she likes the attention. But then he starts buying her too-expensive gifts and taking her to high-end restaurants and she isn’t very happy about it. So far she hasn’t done anything about it, because she does find the attention flattering, but she doesn’t know the whole story yet. That’s for the other guy, who does know the whole story and that’s why he’s ostracized from the rest of the group (he won’t associate with him, but he’s not a criminal and can’t be publicly exposed without being sleazy himself). Anyway, she going to eventually end up with the first, honorable guy, though I think it will take awhile.

    Aaanyway….after reading the article—which I found fascinating, thank you—I remembered how uncomfortable I was writing the main character accepting her first boyfriend’s advances for so long when it made her uncomfortable. But I still wrote it that way—mostly because of a plot point—and mostly because in my original idea he wasn’t that bad. Now I hate him and am having a hard time writing him out of the story right now, which just wouldn’t work. However, I am glad it was always going to be Emmy saying no, a definitive no that actually means no, and then standing up for her friend’s brother who wasn’t quite strong enough to do so himself, which allowed the destructive behavior to continue. And now I want to go back to that story, even though it’s not my nano novel.

    Interesting inversion (?) though. I just saw _Red_and Frank Moses has a crush on the woman at the Pensions’s office, I think, and though he’s never met her, he’s knows she’s in danger too when they try to assassinate him.

  21.  

    Hm, I don’t think I do that.

    I have romance in my plot, but it’s…not really typical. First of all, it’s a gay romance, two boys who have grown up together. One is a serf, and the other is the son of the man who owns the property. They reach puberty and begin to take an interest in each other, but it’s very low key and subtle until one of them has to move away. They kiss, and that is all (after all, they’re only 13 at the time). They don’t meet again until they are both old, and one is dying.

    I also have a subplot in which a young woman is kept captive by a man who is sexually abusing her. She’s not a weak pathetic thing, she even tries to run away a few times, but she always gets caught. She is merely biding her time before she can figure out how to kill him and get away with it. (since he’s prominate citizen, they’d notice if he turned up dead). She’s obviously afraid of him (he could have her put away or killed if he wanted)< but that doesn’t stop her from plotting. She is eventually saved when the Count is shot by someone else, but she actually helped plan the murder. but again, that’s not supposed to be a good relationship, and I never describe the rape in detail.